God's Sovereignty vs. Man's Responsibility (a.k.a classic Arminianism v.s. Calvinism)

[Jennifer]

Ok, I got this one out of the Groups, but it hasn't really taken off there so I thought I would put it out on the Forum.
It seems like
Calvinist view everything though God's Sovereignty,
Arminians view everything though Man's Responsibilty,

How are these two issues resolved? and can someone be a "Calminian"? ;-)

[Jack]

Jennifer, this subject should generate tons of talk ( and heat ).
Many people think, or say, that if God is absolutely sovereign. then man cannot be responsible, or conversly, if man is responsible, then God cannot be sovereign.
an "either/or" proposition. I believe this is incorrect. Man is responsible (accountable to God) because the absolutely sovereign God says so! Whether we can figure it out, or not......whether we think that it is fair, or not, doesn't change the fact that the Word of God teaches both truths, plainly. Accept it and THEN try to figure it out.
Love & peace to y'all

[Jennifer]

Jesse
would you agree that Man has the Free Will that God gave him and therefore the ability to go against the will of God?
and it's just a suggestion; but could you Bold your statments so they stand out from your Bible references, it would make your post easier to read?

Jack
Well I agree that the Bible teaches both, I just tend to think the Arminian view combines the two issues better than Calvinism.

[Josh B]

I would recommend watching a DVD called Amazing Grace

http://www.amazinggracedvd.com/

You can also listen to this

http://www.marshillchurch.org/sermonseries/religionsaves/week_03.aspx

I believe its #7 in the list.

[Jennifer]

But to deny God's Sovereignty is unbiblical

[Kevin Bullock]

But to deny God's Sovereignty is unbiblical


Hi, Jennifer I disagree with this. I believe to deny God's sovereignty is not only biblical it is sinful and what got us into our situation to begin with..

To my mind Genesis 3 supports this. Eve was led into questioning the validity/ sovereignty of God, and a sovereign God cast them out of eden.

I also believe that this same sovereign God places more value on our authentic love for Him rather than a forced, mechanical, empty worship.

[Jennifer]

Jesse
"I believe in the sovereignty of God. But to say God causes everything is unBiblical and slanderous of His holy character. Man causes sin through his own free will, and it breaks the heart of God - Genesis 6:5-6.

Sovereignty does not mean God is the ultimate cause of everything. Sovereignty means that God is the ultimate authority over everything. Sin is not the plan of God. Does wants a sinless universe. But because God is sovereign, we are accountable to Him for our free will choices."
Okay I agree with you on this, but that doesn't mean that Open Theism is the answer.

[Jennifer]

Kevin,
"I also believe that this same sovereign God places more value on our authentic love for Him rather than a forced, mechanical, empty worship."
I don't believe that God being Sovereign means he causes everything that happens, and I agree that God wants us to us to have authentic love for him.

[Jack]

If God isn't sovereign over EVERYTHING, then He isn't sovereign AT ALL! That's the very definition of the word!
If God is not ALL powerful, ALL knowing, ALL wise, everywhere present, eternal, unchangeable, Incomprehensible..... Then He is like the little gods of the heathen, and certainly not worthy to be called: " LORD GOD ALMIGHTY "
The open theist might think that he has god all figured out, and thats because the " Open Theist " has brought his god down to the level of finite man's understanding.

We need an anchor point for our theology, and that Point is: God, Almighty, not fallen, finite man!

Calminian...sure, there millions ovum out there. It's not an official position...its an unrecognized Position. People are naturally "arminian" in their understanding. Then, When we realize that we're saved by Faith, we begin calling ourselves Calvinistic, even tho 90% of our thinking is still Arminian. And we continue to interpret scripture thru Arminian minds. I'm still clawing my way out of arminianisms. Love and Peace, Jack

[Barrett Young]

Jack,
This is a strong mischaracterization of Arminians. I can understand your frustration over the view you once held. I shared (and still share) some of those frustrations with Arminianism. But by generalizing all Arminians as believers in faith and works, you are just giving more ammunition to their generalizations about Calvinists.

Site rule: Irenic - You are kind, gentle, respectful, and understanding, accurately representing opposing parties, even when you disagree.

[Gina]

Re "Calminian"

Since so much of the Calvinist/Arminian framework rests on the assumptions and worldview of the late medieval West*, it should be no surprise that many people find their way back to an earlier viewpoint where this framework did not color the faith. The faith is pre-modern, Semitic, and incarnational rather than systematic, and this "leaks out" in the Scriptures and in lived experience.

*Examples: Nominalism, as in the view of God as exterior and separate from mankind requiring an abstract transaction in order to bridge the gulf; rationalism undercutting the sacramental nature of the faith by which it was necessary to participate body and spirit in one's salvation rather than in an intellectual, ephemeral sense only.

[Jack]

Jesse, we must not confuse the titles and attributes od God.
As final Authority, He will JUDGE the entire world.
As The Sovereign, He CONTROLS all things, right now.
Peace, to y'all, Jack

[Jack]

Barrett, In what way did I mis-characterize Arminians? I believe that I said that it comes to us naturally. Peace and Love, Brother. Jack