Sovereignty Implies What?

[Rey Reynoso]

I know that many folk have different views of God's sovereignty so here's the question: For God to be sovereign what must definitely remain in place to enforce that concept?

PLEASE NOTE: These are examples of what I'm looking for in the phrasing--not the specific examples:
For example: God can only be sovereign if every single action and inaction is controlled.
or
For example: God is sovereign as long as He created everything and left.
or
For example: God is sovereign as long as He has the overuling decision in any given thing.

*post edited for clarification.

[Rey Reynoso]

So Barett, if I'm reading you right you're saying that Sovereignty necessitates that all of the creature's actions are within God's providential control although not necessarily His direct control.

In other words, Sovereignty does not necessitate the Creature's will to be bonded but the limit can be enforced upon the Sovereign's decision.

In other words, the creature can graze where it wants until the sovereign says "not there."

No?

[Barrett Young]

One of the things people want to try to pin on Calvinists - and we probably deserve it the way we specify God's sovereignty over every action - is the denial of the great freedom that we have in Christ! We are no longer slaves, we are sons. Stand firm in your freedom therefore and no longer submit yourselves to a yolk of bondage.

"In other words, the creature can graze where it wants until the sovereign says "not there."
Like I said, it gets more complicated than that, but I'd say, Yes. God is also now molding us into his image so the "where it wants" part becomes more and more like "where He wants". But if we are Sons, we are free to run. Many Christians feel like there is an unknown, underground invisifence called God's Will that will zap us every time we get out of line. God doesn't work like this in the new covenant.

Before Christ, our wills are enslaved. To hear most people talk about it, it would seem that after Christ, they're enslaved as well. Not slaves. Sons. And if the Son sets you free, you are free indeed.

[Michael JW]

God's sovereignty would include several things:

(1) His knowledge of all things past, present and future.
- Not merely passive knowledge of events, but actively determining all things (including the sin of human beings). In all the complexity of creation, absolutely nothing will happen that God (a) did not know about and (b) did not providentially control to use toward his end (including evil).
- NOTE: I'm not advocating that God directly causes evil himself. I'm merely saying that God is equally in control of evil as well as good, and uses both in his plan for this universe.

(2) His power to create and control all things (including controlling conscience beings, i.e., human beings).
- God's power to create implies his absolute control over all things. Although the world as we know it has rules of nature and logic that are universally applicable (e.g., the rules of gravity are the same everywhere on earth, if not the universe). However, they are not running without God's providential hand as their foundation. Moisture from the earth rises into the clouds, and with low pressure systems blowing them inland, we have rain. Nevertheless, it is the Lord who causes the rain to fall; it is the Lord who will move the weather in such a way so that it naturally rains. God doesn't play "catch up" with the natural mechanisms he put in place over his creation.
- God is also in control of human beings. Although we are free to act inside of our nature (reprobate or regenerate), God has known and determined all that will happen. God created us as responsible beings, and we are responsible for our thoughts and actions, but that doesn't take away from or cause God any problems with having people do exactly what he wants them to do (e.g., God's providential control over Joseph's life is a prime example of this principle).

(3) His presence at all places in his creation, working part-and-parcel with his knowledge and power.
- For God to know all things and control all things necessitates his presence in all things. This isn't to say that "all is god" like the pantheist says. No, God's presence is everywhere, working inside the time-framework of this universe to accomplish his plan at all places in the universe, not just on earth (e.g. if God created intelligent life on other planets, he would be amongst them as well).

So basically, I'm saying that God's omniscience, his omnipotence and his omnipresence define his sovereignty.

[Rey Reynoso]

M-JW: Are you saying that Omniscience, Omnipotence and Omnipresence necessitates Sovereignty and then that necessitates that he fully uses His Omniscience to know all, fully uses His power to control all and fully uses His presence to work in all?

In other words, are you saying that because of God's divine attributes He must then fully use those attributes to do what He wants in everything?

In other words Sovereignty (of God) necessitates full use of attributes, no less?

[walueg]

It's a mystery how God is sovereign, but he is in control of absolutely everything. If not, how can we give him thanks for all things as we are commanded? Proverbs 16:33 says,

The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the Lord

I would differ from my brother who said that God's defining characteristic is love. Yes, it's true that he is love, but he is justice, and mercy too. He is wrathful as well as gentle. It would be a mistake to reverse the verse in 1 John to say "Love is God" or assume that is all that's important. I'm not sure I'd say that his sovereignty is his defining characteristic, but it is the one he picked when Moses asked to see his glory. God speaks to Moses, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The Lord [Hebrew: YHWH: I AM what I am, I AM what I do, et al].’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy." You see that all his goodness is always mixed with his sovereignty.

It's not an attribute that he turns off or gives to anyone else. Someone said that he can choose to be sovereign or suspend his power. I'd like to see a Biblical defense of that. Ephesians 1:11 says, "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,..." Not just some things. All things.

[Michael JW]

Rey, In other words Sovereignty (of God) necessitates full use of attributes, no less?

Can God choose to not be everywhere at all times? Can God choose to not know all things? Can God choose to not be all-powerful? Perhaps I'm making a category mistake, but I'm certain that God cannot act contrary to his nature. If he could...my goodness, the kind of fear and uncertainty that would exist - in me, at least - would have no limit.

For God to be who he is (as far as I've discerned from general and special revelation), he possesses these attributes to the fullest extent. God cannot change his nature (immutability), but what about the use of those "omni-" attributes?

Can God actually forget something, or choose to not know something? I don't believe he can because as David attests to, he (David) can go no where without God being there. If God is everywhere, then that necessitates that he is at least aware of what's going on. God is said to be accomplishing all things according to the counsel of his will. God is not blindsided by the unexpected. So I believe that God makes full use of his omniscience, and this is part of his sovereignty.

Can God actually not be somewhere? Is there a portion of the universe that doesn't have the presence of God? I don't believe so because as the scriptures attest, God upholds and sustains all things. Christ is said to be filling all things. If it's true that God upholds and sustains all things, then he must be where all things exist. Again, David says that there is nowhere he can hide from the presence of God, even Hades. So I believe that God makes full use of his omnipresence, and this is part of his sovereignty.

Can God actually not make full use of his power? Can something exist outside of his strength? I don't believe so since, as mentioned before, he must sustain all things. At the same time, because of his knowledge, he must be able to move and control all things. If God were to relinquish his power in even one area, I believe the universe would quite literally be undone, since it's his power that all things have energy, motion and sustenance. So I believe that God makes full use of his omnipotence, and this is part of his sovereignty.

God makes full use of all his attributes to all people, though in our perception there is (1) a delay in his exercising those things and (2) the effect of his exercising his attributes upon us will differ from person to person (e.g., the effect of God's love on his children will ultimately be different than the effect of his love on the children of Satan).

----

To the brother James: I respectfully disagree. Although my certainty is not very high, my thoughts on his central attribute is not that it is "love", but instead "holiness." The reason I suggest this is because of two reasons: (1) the purpose of salvation is to bridge the gap between God and man. Sin in us separates us, but it is God's holiness (his utter separation from anything unclean) that causes the separation in God. God's love for us works together with his holiness to accomplish what we would think is impossible. (2) As far as I understand, the Hebrew language uses repetition for emphasis. In both Isaiah and Revelation (which I understand is Greek...), God is shown to have angels worshiping him at all times saying: Holy, Holy, Holy. In the Revelation, it is God's holiness, his power, that is explicitly worshiped by both angels and man. "God is love" doesn't mean that all that constitutes God is love, but that all that constitutes love is God. The apostle is saying that whatever love is, wherever it comes from, it is bound to what and who God is. The definition of love is God. However, as a central attribute, I would suggest "holiness" ranks fairly high.

[Jack]

Suppose that God was not Omnicient and Omnipresent. Suppose Satan had some big conspiracy going on somewhere, and that God was not even aware of it! Suppose that God was not omnipotent, and couldn't stop the conspiricy, even after He discovered it. Suppose that God was not the sovereign planner and ruler of the universe, and we hear Him saying: "whoops! Hadn't expected this turn of events! Hold on, while I come up with another plan to try out! Is that scary, or what?
Grace to all. Jack

[Michael JW]

Jack, I know what you mean. As the Psalmists do, I thank and praise God for who he is, that by nature he is good, loving, merciful, justifying the meek, destroying the proud and most importantly, his immutability. If God could change, then there is no certainty in anything he has said, because at any moment, he could change is his mind to go back on a promise!

[Rey Reynoso]

Can God choose to not be everywhere at all times? Can God choose to not know all things? Can God choose to not be all-powerful? MJW

Yes: Yeshua Meshach. heh heh.

Can God actually not make full use of his power? Can something exist outside of his strength? MJW

Yes: Yeshua Meshach. lol. But, Jesus Christ not being considered for a moment (respectfully of course) I think you're conflating the two points. When I punish my son I don't have to use my full power in doing it but that doesn't at all imply that my son's ability to be punished is outside of my sphere of power.

But that's neither here nor there, I think you answered the question with the affirmative. I'm looking for what Sovereignty necessitates and by what you're saying then that God's sovereignty entails full use of His power at all times: punishment, planning, predictions. That's fine as is, I'm not arguing the points (yet) merely tallying the differences (or lack thereof) on what Sovereignty necessitates to still constitute as sovereignty.

@Mike: Isn't that just like me to do so? Yes. LoL: but I'm not arguing it--I wonder if others will defend though.

@waleug: So for sovereignty to count as Sovereignty it must be both transcendent and in control? Now I do know there's a couple of ways to use the term "control". One way would be like our TV remote that the TV does nothing without the Controller pushing the buttons and the other way is in that way a parent controls a child that they have the authority to overule any decision the child makes--are you using one version of control over the other?

Hadn't expected this turn of events! Hold on, while I come up with another plan to try out! Is that scary, or what?

@Jack: Good points of the horrendousness of God missing attributes. Are you suggesting though that for God to be sovereign He would at the very least have the power, knowledge and prerogative to stop conspiracies and foil enemy plans?

[mem]

In the first example, the definition of sovereignty is in the exercise of power rather than its presence. In the second, it is in the unbreakable rule of law, like physics. And the third, which is probably closest in spirit to what I think is right, you liken God's sovereignty to his ability to exercise power.

In principle, I think that it's probably best considered to be a combination of the latter two, in the sense that God's sovereign intervention in our own lives is a spiritual miracle—left to our own, we would freely follow the dictates of our fallen natures. God contravenes spiritual laws, for example, when he regenerates us. Regeneration is as much a miracle as the raising of Lazarus.

It seems to me that a feature of God's sovereignty is the ability to give authority to others; this is obviously not possible if he is not sovereign.

Some examples:

God gives all authority ("power" in the KJV) to Jesus Christ (Mt 28.18).

He gives Satan a measure of authority over Job—first he may touch his family and livestock, but not his body. After the second visit, his body also.

He gives Adam and Eve authority in the garden.

There are others, as well—but I think it illustrates how God grants authority to his creation, and we also see the results. Jesus Christ executes judgment, Satan tortures Job, and Adam and Eve fall.

[Rayner Markley]

Sovereignty is ultimate authority. So, God is sovereign as long as no one or nothing is sovereign over Him. There are no constraints on His free will. Perhaps the only thing that might qualify is love. Does love compel God to act as He does? But then God is love.

[walueg]

@waleug: So for sovereignty to count as Sovereignty it must be both transcendent and in control? Now I do know there's a couple of ways to use the term "control". One way would be like our TV remote that the TV does nothing without the Controller pushing the buttons and the other way is in that way a parent controls a child that they have the authority to overule any decision the child makes--are you using one version of control over the other?

Rey, you can't anthropomorphise God.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

10 “For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven
and do not return there but water the earth,
making it bring forth and sprout,
giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

The Bible simply does not speak of a passive God who is merely guiding history. He ordains it. He purposes everything that happens.

That doesn't mean that we are robots. There is a mystery where our free will meets his sovereignty that we cannot understand on this earth. A perfect example of this is the story of Joseph and his brothers. After Joseph has suffered much as a result of his brothers' actions, but is finally made ruler over Egypt, they come to him and he forgives them saying, "you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today." Everything we do is in his plan to ultimately bring about glory to his name and good for those who trust in him. Romans 8:28 means nothing if he is not absolutely sovereign over everything.