Sovereignty Implies What?

[Rey Reynoso]

I know that many folk have different views of God's sovereignty so here's the question: For God to be sovereign what must definitely remain in place to enforce that concept?

PLEASE NOTE: These are examples of what I'm looking for in the phrasing--not the specific examples:
For example: God can only be sovereign if every single action and inaction is controlled.
or
For example: God is sovereign as long as He created everything and left.
or
For example: God is sovereign as long as He has the overuling decision in any given thing.

*post edited for clarification.

[Rey Reynoso]

sov·er·eign also sov·ran \ˈsä-v(ə-)rən, -vərn also ˈsə-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English soverain, from Anglo-French soverein, from soverein, adjective
Date: 13th century

1 a: one possessing or held to possess sovereignty b: one that exercises supreme authority within a limited sphere c: an acknowledged leader : arbiter



sov·er·eign·ty
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English soverainte, from Anglo-French sovereinté, from soverein
Date: 14th century
1obsolete : supreme excellence or an example of it2 a: supreme power especially over a body politic b: freedom from external control : autonomy c: controlling influence3: one that is sovereign ; especially : an autonomous state

[Jack]

I get my definition of sovereignty from scripture! God's supreme Authority is unlimited! Your dictionary is wrong, because the word "Sovereign" should never be applied to a man! The dictionary does refer to an autonomous state, which can only apply to God!

Rey Reynoso said:

sov·er·eign also sov·ran \ˈsä-v(ə-)rən, -vərn also ˈsə-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English soverain, from Anglo-French soverein, from soverein, adjective
Date: 13th century

1 a: one possessing or held to possess sovereignty b: one that exercises supreme authority within a limited sphere c: an acknowledged leader : arbiter



sov·er·eign·ty
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English soverainte, from Anglo-French sovereinté, from soverein
Date: 14th century
1obsolete : supreme excellence or an example of it2 a: supreme power especially over a body politic b: freedom from external control : autonomy c: controlling influence3: one that is sovereign ; especially : an autonomous state

[Rey Reynoso]

Jack it has been applied to man: too late. Words have meaning and even if it is used in Scripture it has not been established How it's used. The fact is that different people read the same Scriptures and come to a different meaning of Sovereignty. Looking back over this thread I've counted 6 without reading.


Jack said:

I get my definition of sovereignty from scripture! God's supreme Authority is unlimited! Your dictionary is wrong, because the word "Sovereign" should never be applied to a man! The dictionary does refer to an autonomous state, which can only apply to God!

Rey Reynoso said:

sov·er·eign also sov·ran \ˈsä-v(ə-)rən, -vərn also ˈsə-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English soverain, from Anglo-French soverein, from soverein, adjective
Date: 13th century

1 a: one possessing or held to possess sovereignty b: one that exercises supreme authority within a limited sphere c: an acknowledged leader : arbiter



sov·er·eign·ty
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English soverainte, from Anglo-French sovereinté, from soverein
Date: 14th century
1obsolete : supreme excellence or an example of it2 a: supreme power especially over a body politic b: freedom from external control : autonomy c: controlling influence3: one that is sovereign ; especially : an autonomous state

[Jason]

I am now officially over my head.
The SCUBA gear is on, and I'm swimming out.

[Jack]

Rey; The word "sovereign" is not in the KJV. I don't know if its used in any translation. However, "supreme authority within a limited sphere, does not apply to the God of the Bible, except to an "open Theist".
I'll bet that no human "sovereign" was even sovereign over his own cat! That would impress me!

Rey Reynoso said:

Jack it has been applied to man: too late. Words have meaning and even if it is used in Scripture it has not been established How it's used. The fact is that different people read the same Scriptures and come to a different meaning of Sovereignty. Looking back over this thread I've counted 6 without reading.


Jack said:

I get my definition of sovereignty from scripture! God's supreme Authority is unlimited! Your dictionary is wrong, because the word "Sovereign" should never be applied to a man! The dictionary does refer to an autonomous state, which can only apply to God!

Rey Reynoso said:

sov·er·eign also sov·ran \ˈsä-v(ə-)rən, -vərn also ˈsə-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English soverain, from Anglo-French soverein, from soverein, adjective
Date: 13th century

1 a: one possessing or held to possess sovereignty b: one that exercises supreme authority within a limited sphere c: an acknowledged leader : arbiter



sov·er·eign·ty
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English soverainte, from Anglo-French sovereinté, from soverein
Date: 14th century
1obsolete : supreme excellence or an example of it2 a: supreme power especially over a body politic b: freedom from external control : autonomy c: controlling influence3: one that is sovereign ; especially : an autonomous state

[Rey Reynoso]

Jack the word Sovereign is used in some versions, NIV being one of them but that's neither here nor there. Let me limit God's sphere of sovereignty right now.

God can only be sovereign over what exists not over what doesn't exist. In other words, if it doesn't exist, God isn't sovereign over it. His sphere of sovereignty is only over existent things.

Jack said:

Rey; The word "sovereign" is not in the KJV. I don't know if its used in any translation. However, "supreme authority within a limited sphere, does not apply to the God of the Bible, except to an "open Theist".
I'll bet that no human "sovereign" was even sovereign over his own cat! That would impress me!

Rey Reynoso said:

Jack it has been applied to man: too late. Words have meaning and even if it is used in Scripture it has not been established How it's used. The fact is that different people read the same Scriptures and come to a different meaning of Sovereignty. Looking back over this thread I've counted 6 without reading.


Jack said:

I get my definition of sovereignty from scripture! God's supreme Authority is unlimited! Your dictionary is wrong, because the word "Sovereign" should never be applied to a man! The dictionary does refer to an autonomous state, which can only apply to God!

Rey Reynoso said:

sov·er·eign also sov·ran \ˈsä-v(ə-)rən, -vərn also ˈsə-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English soverain, from Anglo-French soverein, from soverein, adjective
Date: 13th century

1 a: one possessing or held to possess sovereignty b: one that exercises supreme authority within a limited sphere c: an acknowledged leader : arbiter



sov·er·eign·ty
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English soverainte, from Anglo-French sovereinté, from soverein
Date: 14th century
1obsolete : supreme excellence or an example of it2 a: supreme power especially over a body politic b: freedom from external control : autonomy c: controlling influence3: one that is sovereign ; especially : an autonomous state

[Jack]

Skit
We, who believe in a sovereign God, believe in His providence. But those who believe in a limited God, do not see His providence, but rather moan: "where was God when all this happened?" "Why has He failed to prevent this catastrophy?" To them, "sovereignty" is merely a flattering description of God.
Skit said:

God is Creator/King of the universe, and His sovereignty is not merely what He decrees or predetermines to come to pass in time, but the exercise of His wisdom and power in order to bring those things to pass.
His sovereignty is most clearly seen in His providence.

[Jason]

OK. I decided I'd have to weigh in on this one.
I cannot but believe that this is true.
We might ask if God could be sovereign if there is no one over whom to rule.
The fact is, God was all that there was. God was sovereign over His own choices. He alone is absolutely free. He alone rules over all. Even when there was nothing other than He, He ruled.

Skit said:

"God can only be sovereign over what exists not over what doesn't exist. In other words, if it doesn't exist, God isn't sovereign over it. His sphere of sovereignty is only over existent things."

God is sovereign even before there was a creation. God was sovereign when He determined to create etc. Creation itself is an act of God's sovereignty.
..."God said...and there was..." Genesis 1:3

[Jack]

Skit; I think that many people pray to a limited god, that they hope might be able to get them out of the current mess, that they they have fallen into, or has fallen upon them, by accident!
We pray:" God Heal me." We never ask "God, for what purpose did you bring this upon me, and what is it to accomplish in my life?"
"Oh, genie god, please make my life comfortable, with lots of goodies on my table, Amen"

Skit said:

Jack,

I think that every praying, bible believing Christian acknowledges God's sovereignty. It it when trying to rationalize this in light of human experiences that questions arise and the truth is suppressed in order to give way to the dogma of human sovereignty, I mean human free will.

[Rey Reynoso]

Guys this thread has nothing (note nothing) to do with what people hope or think or what weakens God or Genies something odd like that.

The Opening Post asked what must definitely remain in place for the concept of the sovereignty of God to remain in place. You guys are using the term sovereign in a way that theologians (and even Scripture) doesn't use it. Sovereignty deals with the concept of having authority over. So Yahweh Lord is the Sovereign Lord over Me or My People and Elohim is the Sovereign God over Gods but here's the kicker, who is God sovereign over when there are No Gods, no Me, No People just the trinity? Nothing...just God.

If there's nothing but God who does God have authority over? If something doesn't exist (like square circles) does God have authority over that?

[Rey Reynoso]

It was my quote and exceedingly bright, incisive and clearheaded. =)

Skit said:

"God can only be sovereign over what exists not over what doesn't exist. In other words, if it doesn't exist, God isn't sovereign over it. His sphere of sovereignty is only over existent things."

Please note that this was not my quote!

[Jack]

Rey; There is a problem, in that the Bible KJV does not use the term "sovereign", and the dictionary definition does not fit God! So, we have to re-define the word, before we can ask what it "implies"!
Geezer, just naturally dense!
Rey Reynoso said:

It was my quote and exceedingly bright, incisive and clearheaded. =)

Skit said:

"God can only be sovereign over what exists not over what doesn't exist. In other words, if it doesn't exist, God isn't sovereign over it. His sphere of sovereignty is only over existent things."

Please note that this was not my quote!