Who Decided to Make Rey Sin?

[Rey Reynoso]

Some folk define Sovereignty of God very strictly and others view it more openly. This is what I wonder in two parts:

If God is in complete direct and active control of all things does that mean He has decreed for me to sin after I was saved?

Would that mean my sinning now is not my fault but God's?

(mind you this is for discussions sake to flesh out some thoughts on God's sovereignty. I maintain my sovereign right to close this thread if it becomes a flame war: unless the sovereigns over me moderate me, overturn my decision and reopen it).

[Jack]

God is INFINITE! Man is finite! A rationalist thinks that he is able to understand everything about God. On this subject, many of us begin to think and speak like rationalists. IN OUR thinking, if we are to be held accountable to God, then God must be limited in His sovereignty. So, we say "either/or" and thro out one or the other!
Try THIS thought: Man IS responsible, because Our Infinitely sovereign God SAYS
we are responsible! This discussion has gone on since before Augustine vs Pelagious,
and nobody has come up with a "reasonable" answer that most would agree upon!
Either "sovereignty is re-defined, as "limited, as Man's will is declared to be "free",
or we decide to accept, by faith, that which we cannot understand.
Grace and Patience to us all. Jack

[SweetSomber]

I believe that God is in complete direct and active control over all things: He has decreed that you may sin, if so you so choose, after you are saved - And that "whatever a man sows, that he shall also reap." He has not decreed that you will commit that sin, but that you will be able to choose to commit that sin (and He knows you better than you do, so He knows what you will choose, and if you do sin, He is fully capable of using that to accomplish good somehow.)

Your sinning is your fault. You are the cause of your sin. You may be influenced by your background, surroundings, fears, satan, but YOU will make the choice. That's the way God wanted it to be - you are causally responsible for what you do.

[Michael JW]

The short answer: (1) Yes, (2) No.

The slightly less-than-short answer:
God is indeed in direct and active control of all things. However, God also created us to be responsible for all our decisions. Although God determined all things according to the counsel of his will (including evil), the Scriptures never blame God for evil. The responsibility of evil always rests on those who actually commit sin. For example: Peter says that God ordained the ways and means of Christ's death, yet places the responsibility of such on the religious leaders (Acts 2:22, 23). Both are true at the same time. God planned out the crucifixion, yet evil men carried out the schemes of their own hardened heart. As Grudem says, "In one sentence he links God's plan and foreknowledge with the moral blame that attaches to the actions of 'lawless men.' They were not forced by God to act against their wills; rather, God brought about his plan through their willing choices, for which they were nevertheless responsible." (Grudem, Systematic Theology, p. 327. Emphasis his.)

So yes, God has determined the lives of all people, yet as responsible creatures, we are to blame for the sin and evil desires of our own heart.

[Rey Reynoso]

So we were freed from the bondage of sin to only find out that God decreed before the foundation of the world, that even after being saved He still planned that we will sin specific sins effectively in bondage to sin that was ordained? I am crucified with Christ and yet I sin, not only I but because God predetermined it?

Rey sins?

lol

[Fred]

Yes and No.

God's decree is what he has determined from eternity that he works all things according to his good pleasure, for his own glory. He determines from all eternity to save some and to leave some in their sins, and the Bible is clear about God's plan cannot be thwarted by any man.

God does permit sin to enter into the world. He does "hardens" men by leaving them to their own sinfulness (see Rom 1 for the "God gave them...[to sinfulness]). But the Bible is emphatic in denying that God is the cause of any evil. So the tension remains that God is sovereign over all yet is not the author of sin. If he causes sin, I say that we all eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die (how can we trust God then?).

So God can decree that you are saved at a particular time, and yet leave you to sin and reap your just punishment (not condemnation, but disciplinary punishment). Yet this is to call you to repent and turn to him. The end of all things is that God will be glorified by all. And yes, somehow in his plan even evil exists for his own glory (eg. crucifixion of Jesus as the supremely evil act, yet it was pre-determined, Acts 2).

This "free will" of man is over-rated, and often misinterpreted. God always trumps our "free-will", which is not so free. At least it is not free of sin. And to say that we are the "first mover" or the "first cause" of our actions is just plain arrogant and unbiblical. For "in him we move and have our being". Since in a real biblical sense God is in all (no he is not "in" evil and sinful acts), he is the first cause of all things, except sin.

I am not denying that man has the ability to determine freely, but that none is free in a sense that he is acting totally independently from God. That is just not possible. We are free agents who live and work according to God's pre-determined law (ie gravity, moral law). We are "free" to a certain extent, but God is "free-er".

[Michael JW]

To quote Grudem again:

"...[W]e are nonetheless free in the greatest sense that any creature of God could be free - we make willing choices, choices that have real effects. We are aware of no restraints on our will from God when we make decisions. We must insist that we have the power of willing choice; otherwise we will fall into the error of fatalism or determinism and thus concluded that our choices do not matter, or that we cannot really make willing choices." (Grudem, Systematic Theology, p. 331. Emphasis his.)

All I can say, Rey, is that it is God's will for his children to become sanctified (1 Thessalonians 4:3). When we do sin, when we are tempted, when we are brought through trials, it is not necessarily to bring us down, but to only make us stronger in the Lord (James 1:2-18). Sometimes the Lord will use our sin to crush us, to humble us, to have us repent and return to him (Hosea 5:14 - 6:3).

In my regenerated nature, the power of sin over me is destroyed, and for the first time in my life, I can willingly choose goodness that would actually please the Lord (Romans 8:8-10). Any sin I commit, though determined by God, will work together for his glory and for my sanctification and transformation into the image of Christ (Romans 8:28-30).

[SweetSomber]

Michael,
In response to the idea of "compatibility," (which is what you put forward here: God determines AND we freely choose) I'd like to ask a couple questions, logically.

Who hold the causal responsibility for the act of sin? Do both cause it equally? If so, then God shares in the blame. If God causes it solely, then again, He is held responsible (held to blame) If we cause it solely, then we hold causal responsibility. If we do not cause it, and God allows rather than causes it, what DOES cause the sin? The devil?

"The Devil made me do it," we know is untrue, but is "God caused me to do it" any more correct? If "I caused myself to do it," is true, then it was you and not God who determined it. God merely allowed you to cause yourself to do it.

[Michael JW]

What causes human choice? Is it God or is it man?

"[T]he will is said to be determined, when, in consequence of some action, or influence, its choice is directed to, and fixed upon a particular object. As when we speak of the determination of motion, we mean causing the motion of the body to be in such a direction, rather than another.... With respect to that grand inquiry, 'What determines the Will?'...[i]t is sufficient to my present purpose to say, It is that motive, which, as it stands in view of the mind, is the strongest, that determines the will." (Jonathan Edwards, Freedom of the Will, p. 4 [as available at http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edwards/will.html])

I don't need to make mention of the Bible passages and verses that make it oh so clear that humans are responsible for our own decisions. According to Edwards, our own motives determine our will. You can read his explanation and justification of this for free at the above website.

I firmly believe that general revelation (which includes human reasoning and philosophy) forms part of the message of God to mankind. I firmly believe, also, that general revelation must be subject to special revelation (which includes, supremely, the Holy Scriptures). The Bible forms our measuring rod for all things, including human reasoning and philosophy. If anything, our philosophy must be formed out of what we know from the Bible. If this ends in mystery, so be it. It's for God to know and for us not to know.

(Mind you, I'm not advocating solo scriptura, which says that there isn't any truth outside the Bible. I'm advocating that the Bible is our only infallible starting point for truth, and utterly influences every other fallible source for truth: reason, history, tradition, general revelation (broadly speaking) and emotions.)

I know probably won't like this explanation, especially coming from a Calvinist, but all I have to offer is what Grudem says:

"We can affirm that all of these things are true, because Scripture teaches them. But Scripture does not tell us exactly how God brings this situation about or how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains to come to pass. Here Scripture is silent, and we have to agree with Berkhof that ultimately, 'the problem of God's relation to sin remains a mystery.'" (Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology, p. 330; Emphasis his. Cited: Louis Berkhof, Systematic Theology, p. 175.)

[Joanie D.]

No and no. I agree with the folks here that say that God is in "control" but part of that control was to give people the power to make choices. He may have known what those choices would be, but he did not force the people to make those choices. He only gave you the ability to make choices between sinning and not sinning by making it possible for the Holy Spirit to live within you, guiding you to the correct choices.

[SweetSomber]

"And just as people are appointed to die once, and then to face judgment,
Hebrews 9:27 NET"

I'd say the verse does not apply to all people, but rather is a statement of general principle. In general, it is appointed to people to die once, but there are exceptions, like the ones you mentioned and also Lazarus. He died more than once.

[Rey Reynoso]

I do understand the logical necessity of determinists saying these things (even if it's varied in efficacious strength) but it is interesting to see these somewhat varied opinions. I myself hold to a non-calvinistic compatibalism where God does stand ultimately behind things but I think the emphasis here needs to be adjusted.

I think Mike made a very cogent point about the nature of Sovereignty and the implied premise of the first question. I would tend to agree with him and I want to use a comparatively crude, finite and somewhat ridiculous example.

I decide before my kid is born that I'm going to make him do what I want: specifically eat chicken--nothing else. When he's born I proceed to brainwash him, clean the slate and indoctrinate him in my will, implant a chip in his head that doesn't let him see the other choices (burger, cheese, eggs, salad) that are available to him. This process is perfect: it gets to the point that I don't even have to hide the stuff from him since he doesn't even consider it anymore. As he's older, he leaves my home and I tell him "You are now free to make your own restaurant choices" and yet I keep the buzzer (and the fact remains he's been appropriately indoctrinated to do what I want anyway). The day comes when he's at the restaurant and looks at the menu. He happily picks Chicken.

Whose fault was it that he picked Chicken?

[Jennifer]

Whose fault was it that he picked Chicken?
this is like the question: who is the killer Macbeth or Shakespeare?
the answer is both. Shakespeare shapes Macbeth's world so that he will freely choose to kill.
But is this how we exist; are we just like Macbeth only on a larger stage? if we are was Macbeth right with the famous Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow speech?
or are we responsible for writing our own portion of the play?