Who Decided to Make Rey Sin?

[Rey Reynoso]

Some folk define Sovereignty of God very strictly and others view it more openly. This is what I wonder in two parts:

If God is in complete direct and active control of all things does that mean He has decreed for me to sin after I was saved?

Would that mean my sinning now is not my fault but God's?

(mind you this is for discussions sake to flesh out some thoughts on God's sovereignty. I maintain my sovereign right to close this thread if it becomes a flame war: unless the sovereigns over me moderate me, overturn my decision and reopen it).

[Jack]

Jennifer, Would you say that God had not planned the flood, or the crucification of Christ, before the world began. If it IS preplanned-then it is not reacting.
Peace and Love to you, Jack

[Jennifer]

Jennifer, Would you say that God had not planned the flood, or the crucification of Christ, before the world began. If it IS preplanned-then it is not reacting. Peace and Love to you, Jack

Well Jack I think that gets into an area where we can only speculate;
it kind of goes into the whole timeless discussion etc.; if we say time began at the creation of the world; then words like before and after make no sense when we try to apply them to pre-creation.
so that is a long winded way of saying I don't know.

[SweetSomber]

"@sweetsomber:
Prove that lazarus "died twice", I openly challenge that statement. Give evidence that this statement has any validaty. Please."

Sure - As the Scripture says in John 11, Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. Now, unless Lazarus is still alive today, or was "taken away" like Elijah (both of which I think extremely improbable) he is now dead, again. He died, was raised, and now has died again. The bones of Elisha also brought a man to life, recorded in 2 Kings 13.

"I like the chess player analogy but even when a grandmaster is playing a novice, the grandmaster must move in response to the novice, but no one would ever say that the grandmaster is not controlling the game."

Well, suppose for a moment that the grandmaster knows the notice so well that he knows what the novice would do, given any situation. Suppose that he knows the novice better than the novice knows himself, and while the novice ponders what to do, the grandmaster sits back and smiles, knowing where the novice is going to move this turn, the turn after, etc. This grandmaster not only is in control of the game, but has it all mapped out. He doesn't have to control the thoughts and decisions of the novice.

Whatever we choose, even if God allows to choose freely, God's will is done. For example, if me and you both buy a lottery ticket, maybe you will win, and maybe I will win, but either way, the government wins. (Since they take like half in taxes.) In the same way, God allows variables in life, knowing the outcome of course, but no matter what happens, His victory is set. Maybe you accept Christ as Savior, and God rejoices over a lost sheep, or maybe you reject Christ, and fulfill God's perfect justice. Either way, God wins.

[Michael JW]

He doesn't have to control the thoughts and decisions of the novice.
But the master is controlling the thoughts and decisions of the novice. The master sets up situations where he knows the novice will choose to do this or think about doing that. The master controls everything the novice does by proxy.

If one looks at human freedom as the power of contrary choice (or the will as the first-cause of itself), then the novice still doesn't have any freedom because there still isn't any other choice: he will choose to 'this' - whatever it is - based on the situation the master set up.

[SweetSomber]

Michael
"The master IS controlling the thoughts..."

Not really - He may determine the outcome, by manipulating circumstances, but not my manipulating the mind. The novice may think of a smoothie while playing. Did the chess master cause that? No. An all-knowing chess master may know that the novice will think of the smoothie, but he didn't cause/control that thought.

And God DOES manipulate circumstances to get the right results - He was willing throw Jonah into a fish to get him to go to Nineveh. He didn't give him grace so that Jonah suddenly wanted to, no - God manipulating circumstances, not desires/thoughts, and guess what - God won.

"the novice still doesn't have any freedom because there still isn't any other choice: he will choose to 'this' - whatever it is - based on the situation the master set up."

I still disagree - he could choose whatever. One novice will choose one thing, another will choose something different. But the master expert playing against either will be in control of the game. The master expert could give both the same situation, and the two novices will choose differently - they have freedom of choice. Either way, though, the expert is going to win. Kinda like tic-tac-toe, when your opponent has two lines that they could block - they have freedom to choose one, or, on the contrary, to choose the other. But either way - you finish the line they didn't block, and you win.

God is THAT smart. He always wins. He doesn't need to take away perfectly free choice.

[SweetSomber]

Robert,
"-that does not prove that he [Lazarus] is dead - does it. thats only what you think...."

I agree - I cannot prove that he is dead. I gave good reasons why I say that he is, but you are correct that I cannot actually prove it. :) I was going to say that in my response to you, but forgot.

"These analogies are really getting presumptuous."

How so? I think that analogies are an effective way of expressing a belief. "A picture is worth a thousand words." But we know that all our words and pictures can be quite inaccurate. :) We can still share them, right?

[Rey Reynoso]

I just cursed in my mind: did God predetermine before the foundation of the world that I would curse and therefore taught me the words, put them on my lips and thoughts and burst the bubble so that at this moment, 10:11PM I would curse in my mind for His glory and to learn something?

[Michael JW]

The novice may think of a smoothie while playing. Did the chess master cause that? No. An all-knowing chess master may know that the novice will think of the smoothie, but he didn't cause/control that thought.
This is where the analogy breaks down, because God is not a master chess player - who is only in control of the game. God is in control of all circumstances, even the circumstances that would make me desire for a smoothie. Life is wholly more complicated and interconnected than a game of chess.

"Suppose that he knows the novice better than the novice knows himself, and while the novice ponders what to do, the grandmaster sits back and smiles, knowing where the novice is going to move this turn, the turn after, etc."
How can you reconcile what you said several posts ago (quoted above) with what you said in your latest response: "I still disagree - he could choose whatever."

How can the novice choose whatever when, apparently, the master manipulated the circumstances to achieve the desired result? I still contend that the novice cannot choose whatever in this schema you have set up for yourself.

[Leslie Jebaraj]

Rey: God, being God, knew that you would sin at such and such time, but he does not pre-determine ours sins. Our sins are our choice, as He has made us responsible moral beings.

[Michael JW]

"I just cursed in my mind: did God predetermine before the foundation of the world that I would curse and therefore taught me the words, put them on my lips and thoughts and burst the bubble so that at this moment, 10:11PM I would curse in my mind for His glory and to learn something?"
If by God's foreknowledge and predetermined plan, he desired to bring about the most heinous crime in history (at least from a human perspective) for the salvation of his people and the ultimate glorification of himself, then what is not possible? God determined for it to happen, yet men willingly carried it out.

That is a big, rather important thing, though, the death of Christ. I think, however, that such a schema can be brought down to all things because it is God who is moving everyone everywhere - and using all things - to move toward the end. All history - including the decisions and thoughts of people - are working toward the culmination of all things. You cursing in your mind was your decision. I don't know how that will work into the big scheme of things (I ain't privy to God's sovereign will); yet, did not your thought process occur in such a way that you would bring it up here, for us to discuss?

[Carl Gobelman]

To Jennifer:

The problem with that is you have God reacting to our choices, which I don't think can be supported by Scripture.
I beg to differ, just look at the flood I say God reacted very strongly against the sin of the world, and again look at the Cross; this is God making his Checkmate move if you will. ;-)

I misspoke. What I meant by "reacting" is not that God doesn't react to our choices; which, as you point out, is obviously the case. I meant "react" more in the sense in which there is no control. For example, I'm driving my car, all of a sudden my tire blows, and now I have to "react" to the situation or else my car will crash. I then have to do damage control (change the tire, buy a new tire and have the old one replaced, etc.). I had no control over the situation and my actions were purely reactive with no forethought. That's not the God of the Bible (at least as I read my Bible).

BTW:
I like the chess player analogy but even when a grandmaster is playing a novice, the grandmaster must move in response to the novice, but no one would ever say that the grandmaster is not controlling the game.

Thanks. Point noted and clarification added above. BTW, that's why I said it's a "loose" analogy. ALL human analogies of God break down if you carry them too far.

so to bring it back to the OP, I say that Rey Decided to Make Rey Sin? but God makes his grandmaster move to insure that his will, will be accomplished. That is eventhough the sin was done against his will, he will bring his will out of it.
what we need to do is to bring our will in line with his, so that our moves are his moves.

Exactly!!! I think we're in complete agreement here.

[SweetSomber]

Michael,
"Suppose that he knows the novice better than the novice knows himself, and while the novice ponders what to do, the grandmaster sits back and smiles, knowing where the novice is going to move this turn, the turn after, etc."
How can you reconcile what you said several posts ago (quoted above) with what you said in your latest response: "I still disagree - he could choose whatever."

Well, I don't believe that knowledge is the same as causing. I know what my kid brother did yesterday, I didn't cause it. God can know that someone will think of a smoothie, or make a chess move, without causing it. God is outside of time - He can read our life story like a book while we think it's still happening. God knows, then, what each of us will do tomorrow. I know what will happen later in a book if I've already read the book. I don't cause events in the book. So I can read "Jane Eyre," happily smiling to myself that the main characters will marry at the end, even though I did not cause that ending - the author did.

"How can the novice choose whatever when, apparently, the master manipulated the circumstances to achieve the desired result? "

As I said before, two notices will choose two different things, given the same situation. The novice can choose whatever, but the master will win the game - Kinda like the government and lottery; no matter who wins, the government wins.