Salvific issues?

[Nicole]

I know that "we" throw around terms like heretic, and false teacher and such when someone adheres to a doctrine different than ours - but I wonder, what does the Bible teach about salvific issues? How much doctrine can you get wrong, and still be saved? Is there a difference between the thief on the cross, who was saved with no more doctrine than "You are the Christ" and those who have more knowledge before them, yet pick and choose what they believe?

[Rey Reynoso]

hoo boy: who's gonna' draw that line in the sand first?

[Rey Reynoso]

I'm thinking there's a whole lot that a person can get wrong but if they have faith in Christ to save them, and believe He in fact resurrected from the dead and that He is Lord they will be saved.

I think we're going to be surprised by the amount of X denomination or Christian branch we see in heaven just as we're gonna be surprised of how many Y denomination or Christian branch we don't see there.

[Nicole]

Isn't it safe to assume though, that to some that Jesus says "depart from Me, I never knew you" they thought they had believed in Christ? Like even James says, even the demons believe, and tremble!

[James Gibbons]

Nicole said:

Isn't it safe to assume though, that to some that Jesus says "depart from Me, I never knew you" they thought they had believed in Christ? Like even James says, even the demons believe, and tremble!

Heard teaching on this yesterday. The context of “depart from me…” is “wolves in sheeps’ clothing.” They are intentional deceivers. They are exploiting the sheep by disguising themselves as one of us. Not the same as mere bad doctrine IMHO.

[Fred]

James, you wrote "They are exploiting the sheep by disguising themselves as one of us. Not the same as mere bad doctrine IMHO"

Let me see, who can determine whether one has bad doctrine? Me, or you? And looking at the ancient major heretics, none of them deny that they are Christians. Wouldn't it be funny if a bunch of people decide to start a "Church of the heretics" so that we can identify those who are not saved?'


PS: Just saw a big sign on a highway advertising an "atheist group"... guess there is such a church. http://www.phillycor.org/

[James Gibbons]

Let me see, who can determine whether one has bad doctrine? Me, or you? And looking at the ancient major heretics, none of them deny that they are Christians. Wouldn't it be funny if a bunch of people decide to start a "Church of the heretics" so that we can identify those who are not saved?'

Fortunately, it is not my job to distinguish the truly saved from the pretenders. In fact, it is not something I am equipped to do at all—nor authorized (and neither is anyone else on earth). The Lord knows. But what we can do is teach sound doctrine and identify false doctrine and false teachers.

Whether a teacher of a bad doctrine is saved or not is sort of beside the point. The doctrine needs to be corrected. And everyone needs to hear the true gospel.

[James Gibbons]

PS: Just saw a big sign on a highway advertising an "atheist group"... guess there is such a church. http://www.phillycor.org/

Excellent! Now we’ll know where to find them.

[Jack]

Fred; I think Gnostics should join that group, or form their own "church". :-) Jack

Fred said:

James, you wrote "They are exploiting the sheep by disguising themselves as one of us. Not the same as mere bad doctrine IMHO"

Let me see, who can determine whether one has bad doctrine? Me, or you? And looking at the ancient major heretics, none of them deny that they are Christians. Wouldn't it be funny if a bunch of people decide to start a "Church of the heretics" so that we can identify those who are not saved?'


PS: Just saw a big sign on a highway advertising an "atheist group"... guess there is such a church. http://www.phillycor.org/

[Ratatösk]

At this point in my life I think Paul should be taken at face value when he said, "in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation."

There is no one who hasn't been reconciled with God- at least as far as the Father is concerned. You are forgiven.

It seems to me that heresy doesn't alienate you from God any more than orthodoxy reconciles you to God. God doesn't love us because we're bright. Heresy distorts the message. It hurts and is cruel, and makes living the fullness of the gospel impossible, now.

[Nicole]

To Phil: Why then, in just the next verse does Paul say: "We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God." Paul is begging them to reconcile themselves to God. So, there must, within the very context, be boundaries on who is reconciled. Whether the whole world in this passage means from every tongue, tribe and nation, what have you, or something along those lines - the totality of Scripture does not indicate that everyone will be reconciled in the we're-all-going-to-heaven kind of sense.

Heresy does more than distort the message - it makes a liar out of God.

[J. Matthew Barnes]

I think the problem here is in the way that we define the terms.

I am currently teaching a comparative religions course at my church. I am constantly saying that we (humans who follow Jesus) can determine whether or not the theology of a person or group is within what has historically been called "Christian" but not whether or not individuals are saved. In other words, we can examine doctrine but since we are not God we cannot decide who is saved.

[Nicole]

I was thinking of 1 John 5 when I wrote that: "Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar."

I think too, of the Ephesians church in Revelation - how Jesus commends them for hating the works of the Nicolatians, which He also hates. We need not feel we cannot call a spade a spade, I think the Bible gives us warrant to.

My concern as well, is that we seem to be bringing things back to "historical Christianity" and not right back to the Word. I realise the concern here is the amount of proof texting that goes on - but ultimately we need to examine Scripture against Scripture to best understand the Lord's intentions in what is said.

I fight against the flesh that seeks to understand the Bible through my own circumstances. I have the most appreciation for those people like my best friend, who have really wrestled with truths they know are in the Bible, but have a hard time wanting to understand. We must never allow our own circumstances to hinder what the Holy Spirit intended in the Word.

I'm not trying to decide who is saved. That is the Lord's business. But, are there not some who profess Christ, who still need to hear "brother, you need the Lord"?