Salvific issues?

[Nicole]

I know that "we" throw around terms like heretic, and false teacher and such when someone adheres to a doctrine different than ours - but I wonder, what does the Bible teach about salvific issues? How much doctrine can you get wrong, and still be saved? Is there a difference between the thief on the cross, who was saved with no more doctrine than "You are the Christ" and those who have more knowledge before them, yet pick and choose what they believe?

[Joanie D.]

Nicole asked on the first page, "Isn't it safe to assume though, that to some that Jesus says "depart from Me, I never knew you" they thought they had believed in Christ?"

I always took that passage to mean that the people CLAIMED to believe in Jesus but they did not follow Jesus' commandment to love one another and thereby proved that they were not one of Jesus' followers. Words are cheap. Actions speak louder than words. You will know them by their fruit and all that.

This is NOT to say that if we are Christians we will never fail our fellow human beings. We do that EVERY day (at least I know I do) but we acknowledge that failing and come to God in prayer for wisdom, strength, and love.

I use a lot of prayer "forms" in my prayer life...the Lord's prayer, prayers of thanksgiving, prayers of petition, silent praying in tongues sometimes, Centering Prayer. But when it all come down to it, the most powerful prayer is: "Jesus, help me."

[Ratatösk]

Nicole, it takes two to tango. God's forgiveness of us ought to draw out our reciprocation?

Right?

You can make all sorts of overtures to someone on this board (ask them to be your friend, for example), and yet they can still continue in their determination to ignore you.

Christ has reconciled us to God. Done deal (Although, I'm curious: what do you believes reconciles us to God?). Therefore be reconciled.

Its like a woman telling her husband to be a man. What does that mean? It is a challenge to "get thee to a surgeon?" or "get in the game," and "be who you are."

On another point, scripture doesn't belong to you. It belongs to the people of God. Without them, it would not exist. The gospel is something you receive from others....along with the story Christ set in motion. There is no way of getting beyond your circumstances apart form listening to those who have gone before or lived outside of your cultural conditioning. You need others to hear the Spirit.

On yet another point- the test was an ethical one; he didn't say "depart from me you Sabellian, I never knew you." We've already talked about this, though; seems John and Christ concur.

[Ratatösk]

I'm certain he'd be in good hands, Robert.

[Nicole]

Ah, but now we are discussing the doctrine of election Phil. Jesus promised that of all the Father had given Him, He would lose none.

What is the point of saying all will be reconciled by God, if there is still something man must do? I am not sure I have good answers at this point - but Scripture seems to indicate we can, or can not be reconciled. There has to be a sense where that, and all will be reconciled are both true. Rey has a good definition - where are you Rey?

Joanie said: "I always took that passage to mean that the people CLAIMED to believe in Jesus but they did not follow Jesus' commandment to love one another and thereby proved that they were not one of Jesus' followers. Words are cheap. Actions speak louder than words. You will know them by their fruit and all that."

So then are we saying it is not about orthodoxy (right thinking) but about orthopraxy (right living)?

Phil wrote: "On another point, scripture doesn't belong to you. It belongs to the people of God. Without them, it would not exist. The gospel is something you receive from others....along with the story Christ set in motion. There is no way of getting beyond your circumstances apart form listening to those who have gone before or lived outside of your cultural conditioning. You need others to hear the Spirit."

I feel like I'm picking on you Phil. But, I disagree. You need God to hear the Spirit. And, I think the Word, exclusive of man, stands on its own. "For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double‑edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." My opinion must never supercede what the Word is actually saying. Firstly, because it denies the working of the Holy Spirit. Secondly, it makes truth relative.



I asked "what does the Bible teach about salvific issues"? Don't you want to be sure you are going to "enter the rest?" I am not asking for man's opinion on this one, just what does the Bible say on it?

ie. James says "Faith without works is dead."

[Ratatösk]

Nicole, I was a little snarky last night. Forgive me, and please don't worry about picking on me. I like the attention.

It makes a world of difference whether or not Christ has reconciled me to the Father. It may be that I'm better off as a slave in his house, but how wonderful to know that he's already picked out the fatted calf.

Of course I can ignore his loving overtures and stay put.

You're right about the election thing. Starting to sound like a Universalist. I'm just kidding. No need to explain this to me.

I still think your wrong about the 'unadulterated Bible truth' thing. It may be that you don't want the opinion of man, but I'm not sure how you're going to remove yourself from the mix. Then there's this whole bulletin board thing- yet to see a Bible Sign in.

[Vince]

“He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” –2 Corinthians 5:21

Ordo Salutis "the order of salvation"Salvation is an event and a process in which people are brought into a right relationship with God.

Rom. 8:29–30
“For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.”

Election: God elects us to be His before the foundations of the world
Atonement: God provides atonement and redemption for His elect
Calling: God calls His elect to respond in Faith
Regeneration: God the Holy Spirit Regenerates His elect
Conversion: Faith and Repentance happen, a synergistic process between God and His elect
Justification: God Provides Justification by faith alone in Christ
Sanctification: A synergistic process between God and His elect to become more Christ like in holiness
Glorification: God in the resurrection glorifies His elect completing the process of salvation.

Past
Ephesians 2:8
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.”

Present
1 Corinthians 1:18
“For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”

Future
Romans 5:9
“Much more then, because we have now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from God’s wrath.”

“God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility are taught us side by side in the same Bible; sometimes, indeed, in the same text. . . . It follows that they must be held together, and not played off against each other. Man is a responsible moral agent, though he is also divinely controlled; man is divinely controlled, though he is also a responsible moral agent. God’s sovereignty is a reality and man’s responsibility is a reality too.
—J. I. Packer

[Ratatösk]

Vince, Not sure what the Packer quote has to do with the discussion- unless it was our remarks about election? If so, then I'm with Calvin on this one. Election belongs with a discussion of Redemption- not sovereignty as discussed under Providence or Theology Proper.

Anyway, I don't think Paul meant to give us a consistent Ordo Salutis; do you? His point wasn't to provide a tick list of orderly check points through which every conversion must progress sequentially (why would you think that was his point?) He had another point to make in Romans 8.

Various Orders of Salvation are artifacts (maybe helpful; maybe not) of Systematic Theologians.

[Vince]

Phil..Just listing what I believe the scripture teaches about salvation, I think I understood the question right. It hits on many areas in my opinion.

Now I am not saying you have to understand all that to be saved, that is just what happens.

[Ratatösk]

Oh, I see. You were responding to Nicole's original question- not the discussion. I'm sorry.

[Vince]

Yes, I jumped in really late...

[Vince]

Yes agreed, I should have differentiated between general call and effectual call.
All are called.

My references where the order of salvation in a believers life...

[Ratatösk]

I'm screwed.