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Salvific issues?

I know that "we" throw around terms like heretic, and false teacher and such when someone adheres to a doctrine different than ours - but I wonder, what does the Bible teach about salvific issues? How much doctrine can you get wrong, and still be saved? Is there a difference between the thief on the cross, who was saved with no more doctrine than "You are the Christ" and those who have more knowledge before them, yet pick and choose what they believe?

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Permalink Reply by Nicole on July 15, 2008 at 4:52pm: Which one of you is going to start the election thread somewhere else?

This was my thought this morning - if no one can answer the question of what is a salvific issue, how can you know you are saved??; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by James Gibbons on July 15, 2008 at 5:08pm: This was my thought this morning - if no one can answer the question of what is a salvific issue, how can you know you are saved??

Oh, you wanna cut to the chase. Well,

You must be born again.

That’s it.

Salvation by grace through faith. Confessing with your mouth and believing in your heart that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, that He came to Earth as a man, was sacrificed on the cross to fulfill the demands of a righteous God, so that I can be adjudicated righteous (justified). He has written the check I endorse it. That’s it.

Everything else is a matter of understanding God, enjoying God, pleasing God…but does not change our standing before God.

I just love these little smiley dudes.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by James Gibbons on July 15, 2008 at 5:10pm: Oh, and one other thing. You can’t know that I am saved. But I can. And I can’t know that you are saved. But you can. Of course, there will be arguments about this—sanctification, ya know. But that argument will have to go to the election/eternal security thread…whenever somebody starts it.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jack on July 15, 2008 at 5:34pm: James; at your suggestion, I have opened a discussion on Election. Grace to all, and please, No blood-shed?!
James Gibbons said:
Oh, and one other thing. You can’t know that I am saved. But I can. And I can’t know that you are saved. But you can. Of course, there will be arguments about this—sanctification, ya know. But that argument will have to go to the election/eternal security thread…whenever somebody starts it.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Leslie Jebaraj on July 15, 2008 at 11:25pm: Nicole, if may suggest my take on the matter, that quote from our Lord was actually said to those false prophets who did miracles in the name of Jesus. We are not sure if they personally believed in the Him, though. Then, when the Bible talks about demons believing, the context is belief in one God, and not any salvific discussion.

Nicole said:
Isn't it safe to assume though, that to some that Jesus says "depart from Me, I never knew you" they thought they had believed in Christ? Like even James says, even the demons believe, and tremble!; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Leslie Jebaraj on July 15, 2008 at 11:32pm: Nicole, I think this is what the Bible teaches about salvific issues: one needs to believe that God exists, that I am seperated from God, that Jesus is the Bridge, and that I need to trust him as my Way to God. Period.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Vince on July 16, 2008 at 12:35am: Nicole..

Re
This was my thought this morning - if no one can answer the question of what is a salvific issue, how can you know you are saved??

Now that I understand what you are asking, this is how I deal with that question for myself.

2Co 13:5-6 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you fail to meet the test! I hope you will find out that we have not failed the test.

Php 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Rom 8:15-17 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

I believe based on my faith in Christ that I am saved, based on the process of sanctification that I am being saved and based on my hope in the resurrection that I will be saved.

I have to constantly examine my life that its bearing the fruit of the spirit to provide me the confidence that the Holy Spirit truly is at work, but at the end of the day its faith and hope with the inward witness that I am in Christ.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Nicole on July 16, 2008 at 6:56am: What do you mean by knowing you are a heretic Dee?

Vince said: "Now that I understand what you are asking, this is how I deal with that question for myself."

Well, it is only sort of what I was asking. No one really wants to touch this. That's fine. If no one else wants to, then it makes me too chicken.

Can you believe that Jesus is not God and still go to heaven?
Can you believe that Jesus was not always God, and still be saved?
Can you believe that Jesus is the only way, but that He has provided that way for all, regardless of whether they accept Him or not, and still have eternal life?
Can you believe there is more than one way to God (even if you follow "the way") and still be redeemed?
Can you say the "sinners prayer" and get on with your merry life, and still be covered by the blood of the Lamb?

What does the Bible say? And, if I knew the answers, I would not be asking the question. (Which is why I don't post more ); ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Rob G. Reid on July 16, 2008 at 7:46am: Nicole: Excellent question! This gets at the heart of what some of us, rather controversially, have been toying with...

If one takes a "propositional model" of noetic apprehension as the requirement for salvation then the question becomes "which propositions are absolutely essential to being saved?" The unfortunate part is that following Jesus then becomes reduced not to a relationship, but rather one's assent to a list of propositions. I realize it is difficult, through the modernist lenses that have been bequeathed to us all (myself included) that maybe, just maybe, we would do well to get away from such a model, its list, and the trappings of holding such a system.

When you say "doctrine" what I'm hearing is "right belief" (i.e. predicated upon a propositional model). Is there another way?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Raquel on July 16, 2008 at 11:10am: I accept your challenge.

Can you believe that Jesus is not God and still go to heaven?
I could quote the obvious but I'm just going to say no.

Can you believe that Jesus was not always God, and still be saved?
I don't think that matters. What matters is that you beleive that Jesus is God today.

Can you believe that Jesus is the only way, but that He has provided that way for all, regardless of whether they accept Him or not, and still have eternal life?
This is the tough one for me because I want it to be so. But my heart tells me no. (see first answer)

Can you believe there is more than one way to God (even if you follow "the way") and still be redeemed?
...I think so. But if you don't have the fruit of faith, if you apply works without applying Jesus because you beleive that everyone gets in, then you absolutely are sinning and I personally don't want to sin when I know better. And what a waste, really. Applying God's love to others and then not even giving Him, your Savior, any credit. The more that I think about it, the more I think no. Who would do that to the God they love? I challenge that belief. God makes it apparent (read the Bible) that He is a jealous God.

Can you say the "sinners prayer" and get on with your merry life, and still be covered by the blood of the Lamb?
The Bible warns us against this. Again going back to proof of faith via works.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Nicole on July 16, 2008 at 12:00pm: Rob said: "If one takes a "propositional model" of noetic apprehension as the requirement for salvation then the question becomes "which propositions are absolutely essential to being saved?" The unfortunate part is that following Jesus then becomes reduced not to a relationship, but rather one's assent to a list of propositions. I realize it is difficult, through the modernist lenses that have been bequeathed to us all (myself included) that maybe, just maybe, we would do well to get away from such a model, its list, and the trappings of holding such a system."

I'm not trying to reduce anything. What I am doing, is asking whether the things we label "heresy" are heresy. I am doing a study in 1 John - which is full of how we know we are saved. And it talks about testing the spirits. And it talks about knowing who is "of the devil."

I do not believe we are all just sitting around sharing opinions - I wonder sometimes, if the doctrines expressed do not have eternal consequences. That is something we need to seriously pause over and consider, is it not?; ▶ Reply to This