Salvific issues?

[Nicole]

I know that "we" throw around terms like heretic, and false teacher and such when someone adheres to a doctrine different than ours - but I wonder, what does the Bible teach about salvific issues? How much doctrine can you get wrong, and still be saved? Is there a difference between the thief on the cross, who was saved with no more doctrine than "You are the Christ" and those who have more knowledge before them, yet pick and choose what they believe?

[Nicole]

You're a brat

[Raquel]

A laughing brat

[Ratatösk]

Laurel, this has a lot to do with the discussion Raquel and I are having over at Sinners in the Hands of An Angry God. One that I am looking forward to getting back to…

Anyway, I believe that salvation in its fullest sense lies before us. Rey, would say its eschatological. We are saved now in so far as we participate in the reality of the future, today. That promised existence is characterized a full and total infusion with the Spirit of God. Pentecost was much more than the promised equipping of God’s people. It was the future invading back in time.

Those who belong to Christ are time travelers. It’s not so much that we are from a different place, as a different age.

This means that there may very well be people who will inherit the Age-To-Come, but who don’t participate in it at present. There are those who aren’t saved, but may be in the end. Perhaps there are those who are saved, but who will take off their Time Travel suits and step back into Adamic time.

This is how I understand Christ’s statement regarding John the Baptist being less than the least in the Kingdom. He was a friend of God. No doubt God had his eternal destiny well in hand, but he didn’t live in the reality of that future while he was walking in Israel. Because that reality wasn’t real until brought into existence on Easter morning.

I imagine that being a friend of God- knowing that he exists and rewards those who seek him- is what is required to get a welcome after knocking on his door. I think there’s probably room for most every heretic in that description. Don’t really know.

But I think there are ways of telling the Christ story that will prevent you from living in the fullness of the life that characterizes the eternal age. At least they disqualify, if consistently explored and utilized canonically.

For example, I can see how a person raised in a certain context (maybe they know some Christians ) who deny the reality of the Trinity. They pray, and do their best to conform their lives to the knowledge they’ve been given. Why would God not accept their friendship as he accepted the Monotheistic friendship of Abraham? But a god who exists eternally alone, cannot be the basis of living a life that the fullness of the gospel calls us to. If God is simply one, then communion, love and relationship are superfluous. That's necessarily so, because there was a time when they were not.

Power, should have been the description chosen by St. John. Not love. A vision of humanity that flows from that understanding of its archetype would be incapable of expressing the end for which we were made and the life the sacrificing God-Who-Lives-By-Giving-Himself-Away has prepared for us.

The same would be true of all the other arch-heresies.

We’re not friends with God, because we can pass some sort of examination, but living a life consistently based on incorrect answers to the exam, will be hurtful for us and embarrassing for our God. They all fall short of being Good News. They're dangerous news, instead.

I think the question I should be worrying about is "am I living a truly God glorifying life for my father, now." Heresy has something to say to that, I think. The question of "who will be saved in the end?", is more than any of us really know.

[Chen Yew Lin]

1) Right thinking is, knowing that God is righteous & we are not. For me, this correction alone takes a long while. Many years after becoming Christian, consciously I confess that all are sinners; subconsciously I believe that we are elected because God saw something righteous in us, the elect. God will show us our ugliness if He must. Israel was a righteous people in a sense and then they went into exile. Some wrong ideas are so stubborn God has to break you to break them.

2) Right living is repentance all the way. In this regard, we do not know where the end is. May be there is no end and so God has to take us and lead us a step at a time, by showing us Himself and who we are. We cannot make this journey on our own. We must repent of wrong thinking before we can repent of wrong living. The whole life can be messed up just to get major things right. To God it is worth it if we are in the end saved and so we must submit to His dealing without backsliding. It is better to have a destroyed life but we are in the end humbled and saved. Full restoration is always possible, if we can belief it but wrong foundations of our own wrong beliefs must be up-rooted.

We must know God and not have presumptous ideas about Him which is the problem with so many present day christians. Present day christians do not know God that He is the same just and truthful that He always is. Israel did not know God is His great mercy and did not recognise Jesus in the time of their visitation. Right ideas about God has everything to do with our right living and salvation. 'If I speak in the tongues of man & of angels but have not love, I am a noisy gong and a clanging cymbol ....'

[Raquel]

Chen Yew Lin said:

1) Right thinking is, knowing that God is righteous & we are not. For me, this correction alone takes a long while. Many years after becoming Christian, consciously I confess that all are sinners; subconsciously I believe that we are elected because God saw something righteous in us, the elect. God will show us our ugliness if He must. Israel was a righteous people in a sense and then they went into exile. Some wrong ideas are so stubborn God has to break you to break them.

2) Right living is repentance all the way. In this regard, we do not know where the end is. May be there is no end and so God has to take us and lead us a step at a time, by showing us Himself and who we are. We cannot make this journey on our own. We must repent of wrong thinking before we can repent of wrong living. The whole life can be messed up just to get major things right. To God it is worth it if we are in the end saved and so we must submit to His dealing without backsliding. It is better to have a destroyed life but we are in the end humbled and saved. Full restoration is always possible, if we can belief it but wrong foundations of our own wrong beliefs must be up-rooted.

We must know God and not have presumptous ideas about Him which is the problem with so many present day christians. Present day christians do not know God that He is the same just and truthful that He always is. Israel did not know God is His great mercy and did not recognise Jesus in the time of their visitation. Right ideas about God has everything to do with our right living and salvation. 'If I speak in the tongues of man & of angels but have not love, I am a noisy gong and a clanging cymbol ....'

Well said!

[Nicole]

"subconsciously I believe that we are elected because God saw something righteous in us, the elect."

What does that mean?

[Nicole]

I'm thinking of Romans 10:13-17:

"For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?... So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."

Not all roads lead to God - one must hear the good news to believe and be saved.

[Ratatösk]

I'm not sure that's what Chen Yew Lin meant, Ian.

Anyway, other than the Council of Orange's restriction, I'm not sure where the church has ruled particular views on this stuff to be orthodox or not.

There's nothing we can do to warrant God's favor? Is the hope of hearing, "Well done thou good and faithful servant!" another empty scenario- like that "come unto me all ye..." business?

Why do we let this merit/earning metaphor enter into everything we have to say about this relationship. It never comes up in any of my other relationships. I never tell my kids, "Here's an ice cream cone....but you didn't earn it!" or "I love you... but don't think I have to!" What's up with the monetary exchange obsession?

[Ratatösk]

Well Ian, I'm thinking that anything which is truly subconscious is beyond knowing. So, if Chen Yew Lin truly did believe this subconsciously, he wouldn't be aware of it. That being the case, I'm wondering if the more standard and clearly expressed view that he articulates and attributes to his conscious belief, is his conscious belief.

Maybe, he was meaning to say that although he says he believes what he knows scripture to teach regarding his own worthlessness, the sinful part of him really holds onto the prideful and self justifying view of himself (that reformed theology attributes to anyone who disagrees with its particular reading.)

In other words, maybe it was a transparent confession, not an invitation to be labeled dismissively as unorthodox.

Maybe, not. Maybe he was meaning to say he was aware of that which he is, by definition, unaware. I'm sure he'll let us know.

In answer to your question: I'm wondering why you keep bring up merit. You did it twice more in your response. Why aren't you asking about the role of tuneful flatulence or red hair or child like dependence in our relation to God. Why merit, merit, merit, merit? Seems an arbitrary and unfortunate metaphor to squeeze any relationship through.

[Chen Yew Lin]

Tks Phil for trying to defend me. I am not a student of theology, only a student of the Bible although I think I know some elementary theology; so some of the terms that you guys use, I don't think I have the full idea of what you guys meant, like for eg. orthodox etc.,

I know theologically we are born depraved; and I agree that we are born depraved. Yet we cannot really put a finger on what is this depravity about, what is the extent of this depravity. Does the degree of depravity differ from person to person because of family lines and accumulated good and wrongs, like the Lord say that He will visit idolatry to the 4th generation and bless for faithfulness to the 1000th genenration?

When I say that the Lord saw something good in the elect, it does not mean that the elect are not also born depraved. We are still depraved yet some will recognise the Lord and some won't, some will choose the Lord and some won't, some will pay the price and some won't. We are depraved but not depraved beyond reason, not depraved beyong recognising and wanting the truth and not depraved beyond repentance. Why God still find men of faith and goodwill on earth after the fall of men to save them and we have so many examples in OT, etc. E.g. did God saw something in Abraham or Enoch or Noah or Job? Sure He does. I think why it is correct that we are borned in sin, the room and space for individual seeking of truth and the room and space for individual choice is still protected or preserved in a sense otherwise God cannot judge each man and hold him accountable.

I think Nicole spoted and asked the right question.

[Raquel]

Karl,
What exactly is the salvation of 'hear and now'?

[Joanie D.]

Karl said, "Salvation in the New Testament means 'to be made whole.' "

I like that, Karl. May we all be made whole!