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Salvific issues?

I know that "we" throw around terms like heretic, and false teacher and such when someone adheres to a doctrine different than ours - but I wonder, what does the Bible teach about salvific issues? How much doctrine can you get wrong, and still be saved? Is there a difference between the thief on the cross, who was saved with no more doctrine than "You are the Christ" and those who have more knowledge before them, yet pick and choose what they believe?

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Permalink Reply by Rey Reynoso on July 21, 2008 at 9:30pm: I just finished reading the last 2 pages: Have we gotten turned around at Albuquerque? I thought we were trying to find out how much doctrine can you get wrong and still be considered saved?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Raquel on July 21, 2008 at 9:52pm: Rey Reynoso said:
I just finished reading the last 2 pages: Have we gotten turned around at Albuquerque? I thought we were trying to find out how much doctrine can you get wrong and still be considered saved?

I love Albuquerque! It's a good combination of natural beauty and small town. Have you ever been there?
jk; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Rey Reynoso on July 21, 2008 at 9:53pm: My closest exposure to Albuquerque is Bugs Bunny.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Raquel on July 21, 2008 at 9:58pm: Seriously, Rey, it appears as if no one wants to put their neck out in fear of offending others. You down to answer the questions that Verity posed?

Can you believe that Jesus is not God and still go to heaven?
Can you believe that Jesus was not always God, and still be saved?
Can you believe that Jesus is the only way, but that He has provided that way for all, regardless of whether they accept Him or not, and still have eternal life?
Can you believe there is more than one way to God (even if you follow "the way") and still be redeemed?
Can you say the "sinners prayer" and get on with your merry life, and still be covered by the blood of the Lamb?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Rey Reynoso on July 21, 2008 at 10:07pm: 1. I don't know but I'd lean to I don't think so with caveats. Paul seems to argue in Romans 10 that there is an inherent understanding that Jesus is Lord and that in the OT sense, yet I'm sure that there might be people who believed Him as savior, who have been justified and maybe had a very bad theological position when it comes to the person of Christ. Yet John would say that the confession of Christ is vitally important--I don't know.
2. Once again, I don't know for the reasons I said above. I mean, what if someone believes Him as Lord but thinks He became God? There's something really wrong there, but I don't know.
3 I don't understand this one. I think its saying "Do you believe there's salvation outside of knowing Christ." I don't know but I tend to lean towards no. I mean, I would hope that its true that with the revelation of God that He provides a way for folk to be saved apart from confession in Christ, but we know that there is no other name under heaven by which men must be saved. I know folk could make a loophole here saying that the belief is made "righteous" by God's choice, just as He did for the Jews before the cross and maybe even for some years after the resurrection. So I don't know really.
4. I think so yes. Bad theology doesn't ban you from Theologica or the Lord's presence. lol
5. No. Sinner's prayer doesn't save anyone.

Raquel said:
Seriously, Rey, it appears as if no one wants to put their neck out in fear of offending others. You down to answer the questions that Verity posed?

Can you believe that Jesus is not God and still go to heaven?
Can you believe that Jesus was not always God, and still be saved?
Can you believe that Jesus is the only way, but that He has provided that way for all, regardless of whether they accept Him or not, and still have eternal life?
Can you believe there is more than one way to God (even if you follow "the way") and still be redeemed?
Can you say the "sinners prayer" and get on with your merry life, and still be covered by the blood of the Lamb?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Chen Yew Lin on July 22, 2008 at 12:22am: I think I would like to take a shot at these questions.

1. Can you believe that Jesus is not God and still go to heaven? No

2. Can you believe that Jesus was not always God, and still be saved? No

3. Can you believe that Jesus is the only way, but that He has provided that way for all, regardless of whether they accept Him or not, and still have eternal life? Yes

4. Can you believe there is more than one way to God (even if you follow "the way") and still be redeemed? No

5. Can you say the "sinners prayer" and get on with your merry life, and still be covered by the blood of the Lamb? No; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Nicole on July 22, 2008 at 6:46am: Raquel said: "You down to answer the questions that Verity posed?" who?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Nicholas Steblay on July 22, 2008 at 7:43am: It seems to me that this is an epistemological issue. Doctrine is based on revelation which in turn is based on interpretation of the scripture. Needless to say interpretation varies. Churches will rally around a specific interpretation, some with more precision, and make that their doctrine.

Stripping differences between churches I believe the fundamental doctrine of salvation is accept in the heart and confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

If you choose to worship in a church community, which the Bible commands, then you have a biblical obligation to honor the ecclesiastical authorities in your church. Churches can be, have been, are, and will become heretical. The gauge for heresy is in the eye-of-the-beholder and that person's acceptance of an authority. In those situations where a believer is in a church that has heretical doctrine I believe the Holy Spirit will reveal this fact through interpretation of scripture, testimony of others, or other means. Once understood a believer can choose to change the church's position or seek a body that aligns with what is considered sound doctrine.

I think we can all agree that some differences in doctrine don't amount to heresy. It is worth taking an irenic view of the various church doctrines and determine what is core (orthodox) and what is not.

Churches that have not defined doctrine specifically seem to be prone to heretical teaching, though some mainstream churches with years of doctrinal development don't seem to be lining up with the Bible. Just because you find yourself a member of or participant in such a church does not invalidate your salvation. If a church's doctrine becomes an issue with your relationship and walk with Christ, the Holy Spirit [ or someone on this site :>) ] will let you know.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Raquel on July 22, 2008 at 12:19pm: (ahem)
Allow me to restate:
You down to answer the questions that Nicole posed?

Nicole said:
Raquel said: "You down to answer the questions that Verity posed?" who?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Raquel on July 22, 2008 at 12:49pm: Karl,
"Raquel: The here and now is the focus on today. On a personal basis for each person, if things are cared for today then tomorrow will take care of itself. If you are right with God now will not take care of business tomorrow?"

Huh? Who are you thinking of that doesn't focus on today?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Raquel on July 22, 2008 at 1:12pm: I didn't take offense, so no worries there. However, I'm still not getting your ultimate point. I hear you... what I think your getting at is a focus on the next meal rather than a focus on the eternal?

Karl St. said:
Raquel O.K. - I think we are working at two different points. Your question makes me think I offended you, which was not my intention. For my own sake, I have seen a lot of Christians focus on life after death matters. Important concern for most people, yes! For me, it is of no interest. If I am busy with the concerns of God today, discussions of life after death holds no sway with me. I teach Sunday School, work in a homeless shelter, work with gangs, broken families which simply leave you heart broken. I then I listen to people who are concerned with life after death while I'm working with people whose biggest concern is where does my next meal come from. So I am not pointing the finger at any one person, but I will call the whole Church into question when I feel the focus of salvation is "not here and now". Does that make sense or am I not conveying something correctly?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Ratatösk on July 22, 2008 at 1:21pm: Karl's right!

About defining salvation, the authority to name heresy and God taking care of all the dangley ends of those who look to him.

The question of who belongs to him is the tricky one, I guess. If you'd asked me, I'd say truth be told everyone belongs to God. Twice over. He made them and then bought them back.

Not everyone knows that, though. Many are hiding, saving up for reparations or convinced they are cosmic orphans. The gospel spins a different story- the true story of God, you and me. Many don't want any part of our Father's inheritance. They live in their pig sty, ignoring the fact that Dad owns that too.

I think that's what justification (in part) is about: knowing before hand how things will turnout in the end. Heresy leaves some part of us immersed in the world's cursed story.; ▶ Reply to This