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ELECTION: DID GOD CHOOSE ME, OR DID I CHOOSE HIM?

Did God elect me before the foundation of the world, based upon His fore-knowledge of my faith and/or works, Or upon His good pleasure, without consideration of my faith or works? Have at it!

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Permalink Reply by Jack on July 17, 2008 at 8:56pm: Chen; Agreed 100%. Thanks for your contributions. Jack

Chen Yew Lin said:
Hi Jack, In response to your Q, I think God decreed according to His love and wisdom; and all things proceeded in that direction. Fore-knowledge does not come before God's will because there was nothing; He created everything there was.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by MD Zim on July 18, 2008 at 10:49am: Does it matter? Seriously. We are discussing a subject that has infinite qualities to it. I am finite. God is sovereign to that there is no doubt. There is no time with God. I am finite time is a factor in my thought processes. It seems arrogant folly to say one can fully comprehend the sovereignty of God. Yet I also see that God has created man in His image. Only a sovereign God can create a being like unto himself with a free will. Man makes artificial intelligence. God made man. I am neither of Calvin nor of Armenius. I am of Jesus Christ my Lord and saviour. He chose and I chose and I marvel at the infinite wisdom and power of my God. I suppose this may label me as a biblicist. So be it. I find both election and free will presented in the Bible. Calvinism to its extreme diminishes the sovereignty of God by making man robots...(implying that God can only be sovereign if we do not have free will) Armenism to its extreme leads to a belief of works and a God who changes. God does not change. 2 Timothy 1:9-13 is a comforting passage. So in answer to your question I pose a question. From whose point of view are you asking. Man's or a finite point of view or God's an infinite point of view? I can't presuppose to know the mind of God. As far as my point of view. God saved me by his grace not of works lest any man should boast.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jack on July 18, 2008 at 1:32pm: Zim; Welcome aboard! We are not discussing things that God has NOT revealed. The things revealed belong to us: Deut.29:29, and should be recieved, studied, and understood, to the extent that God enables us. The things revealed are to be recieved, not ignored or denied. God is glorified by Election; Man is humbled by election. This is not a fruitless argument; it is, or should be a quest for God's Glory!; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by MD Zim on July 21, 2008 at 9:09am: I agree we should study it out and learn what has been revealed. I believe in election and since there is no time with God that my salvation from His point of view is. From man's point of view and God in his grace granted us free will. It shows His love. He chose us but He gives us the opportunity to choose Him. It was like a story I heard of in the middle east. It was a pre arranged marriage. The man understood he was going to marry this gal but he loved her and wanted her to love him because she chose to. So even though they were pre destined to marry he took her out on dates and basically woo ed and eventually asked her to marry him. She didnt understand his actions at first because in her mind why would he waste all this when even if she said no it was set by their families to get married. They did get married and how much the sweeter when he had a wife that was not only pre selected for him but also chose to love him for who he was. A poor illustration I know but it is why I hold to a more balanced approach and helps me as I study his revealed knowledge of both sovereignty and free will. I personally wish to spend more time obeying His revealed word that I do understand then neglecting obedience because I am spending more time trying to make sure that God is doing his part. This doesnt mean I do not study his sovereignty but there are somethings I accept by faith that He is God and is perfect. There is beauty in His Holiness and even if I cant fully comprehend his majesty I can rest in the thought that He is in control and does what he wants when He wants.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Leticia Estavillo on July 21, 2008 at 10:39am: God's Peace and Grace to you all -

I am new to this site and I love this discussion and those participating in it. It is intriguing. I'll be honest and admit, right now, that I haven't completely read all the comments here. Although, I am working my way through them. But I, hopefully, would like to bring a few different perspectives to this argument. But first, I should state, for the record, that I lean toward an Arminian view.

Logically, there are only four scenarios for viewing:

God rejects person, person rejects Christ. (I am specifying Christ assuming we are going to follow the Trinitarian view of Christ.)
God accepts person, person accepts Christ.
God accepts person, person rejects Christ.
God rejects person, person accepts Christ.

For the first two scenarios, these are really, 'no-brainers'. Both parties are in agreement, and I would suspect that if those two agree with each other, the rest of the universe wouldn't care one way or the other.

The third scenario is one that I call "Amazing Grace", because here is the scenario where God grants from His wealth because He can and does. (Even though I lean Arminian, I still will not presume my opinion is God's will and God can do whatever he likes because his actions are holy.)

It's the fourth scenario that really, in my honest opinion, bothers Christians. Why? Because there are scenarios in the Bible where we don't understand why God does what He does. Why did God choose Abel's offering and not Cain's? Why did God did choose Saul, but then because of Saul's actions, God rejected Saul? And so on. Oh, we can speculate and read commentary on the reasons, but we don't understand the mind of God and quite frankly, I don't even want to try.

But I think it's two particular scriptures that makes us all wonder to this question of who chooses whom. The first is the parable of "The Goats and the Sheep" (Matthew 25:31 - 46) Both the righteous and the damned give the same answer: Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you? The second is Matthew 7:21-29, especially the first verse: "‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord”, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only one who does the will of my Father in heaven."

And it's right there, when I try to think of this whole scene, that I stop and go, "You know what? It's not for me to worry about." I really try to live by only one motto and that is, Am I trying to do the Will of God today?

I hope this made some sense. Peace and Love. -- L; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Rey Reynoso on July 21, 2008 at 6:11pm: A few ways that I can read the Revelation passage:
1) They were justified by faith but no longer had faith and were thus spewed out
2) They were justified by faith but had tepid works and thus spewed out
3) They professed being justified by faith and their actions reflect neither rejection nor acceptance: an even keel apathy
4) There is no justification by faith mentioned at all and this passage is dealing altogether with their actions.

If I read the passage with 1 or 2 then yes, it means that here's a group that has not been conformed into the image of the Son. If I don't read it that way, then my position still stands.

Seraphim Walters said:
Rey Reynoso said:
Laurel Esser said:
It simply says that this group labeled The Called are also labeled to having an End Destiny which results in Being Conformed to the Image of the Son.

I'm not sure if I am on the same page as you on this - so if we have to respond to the call - but everyone who is called has an "End Destiny which results in Being Conformed to the Image of the Son." is there any choice then for those who are called?

God doesn't say that some of the people who are called - He says, "those who are called"

Those who are Justified by Faith are have no choice: they will be conformed into the image of the Son.

um, what?

"I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth."; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jack on July 21, 2008 at 7:02pm: Seraphim; Did you say that Rom 8:28-30 IMPLIES that We must answer the phone?
Brother, Jack

Seraphim Walters said:
Laurel Esser said:
Rom 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to THEM WHO are called according to His purpose, 29 For WHOM He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren. 30 Moreover, WHOM he did predestinate, THEM He also called: and WHOM He called, THEM He also justified: and WHOM He justified, THEM He also glorified."

It doesn't say - "but if you have to work with the Holy Spirit or God doesn't actually do all of those things."

however it is implied you have to answer the phone when he calls...; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jack on July 21, 2008 at 7:56pm: Romans 8:28-30 is describing the work of God,only! No response from man is implied.
"to those who LOVE God.." is a work of God, In man.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Gina on July 21, 2008 at 9:49pm: If you think that one can be conformed to the image of Christ in completely passive fashion, well I don't know. It has always seemed like very hard work to me. But perhaps that's why I'm not a Calvinist.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Rey Reynoso on July 21, 2008 at 9:52pm: I don't think a Calvinist would argue that it's passive after being regenerated and justified. They'd probably argue that you are happily partaking in the conformation in the image of the Son because it is God who works in you to will and to do that which He plans to finish in you.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Gina on July 21, 2008 at 10:02pm: So, in fact the passage is not speaking of "God's work alone." Nor, as I have argued earlier in the thread, can you love God by His work alone. That would be quite a barren relationship.

Then again, I also don't understand how one can be regenerated but still need to be conformed to the image of Christ afterwards. That is not a very thorough regeneration.

I don't really need a primer in Calvinist thought, I'm just referring to a few of the burrs in the works as far as I am concerned. Anselm's framework should have been rejected outright, not toyed around with. Then again I suppose the problem goes back to Augustine's explanation of original sin.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jack on July 21, 2008 at 10:59pm: Gina; I said that the passage: Romans 8:28-30, speaks only of God's working, not man's working. I think that someone was adding to the word, by saying that the passage "Implies that man must answer the phone". No such "implication" was there!
I don't deny that a regenerate person co-operates with God. Christ's Love, Jack; ▶ Reply to This