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ELECTION: DID GOD CHOOSE ME, OR DID I CHOOSE HIM?

Did God elect me before the foundation of the world, based upon His fore-knowledge of my faith and/or works, Or upon His good pleasure, without consideration of my faith or works? Have at it!

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Permalink Reply by Rey Reynoso on July 15, 2008 at 11:37pm: Jack said:
Rey; Rom 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to THEM WHO are called according to His purpose, 29 For WHOM He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren. 30 Moreover, WHOM he did predestinate, THEM He also called: and WHOM He called, THEM He also justified: and WHOM He justified, THEM He also glorified." I'm not denying that Christ was elect, but rather, your round-about way of saying thay WE BECAME elect when we believed on (or we chose) Christ.
Love to all, Jack

Predestination and Election are not the same thing. Predestination is God delineating the end goal, Election is God choosing or selecting.God in His mercy has decided, of His own volition and sovereignty, to decide that those who believe in Christ will not merely believe and be saved by wrath: He has given them an ultimate destiny to be conformed into the image of the Son.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Rey Reynoso on July 15, 2008 at 11:41pm: SweetSomber said:
Interesting answer Rey, I can honestly say that I haven't heard that one before. :)

So I'm a unique heretic? I can only hope.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jack on July 15, 2008 at 11:45pm: Rey; I think that you've missed the "WHOM He foreknew" in Rom 8:29.
Predestination is the end-goal for the WHOM He fore-knew. Love, Jack

Rey Reynoso said:
Jack said:
Rey; Rom 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to THEM WHO are called according to His purpose, 29 For WHOM He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren. 30 Moreover, WHOM he did predestinate, THEM He also called: and WHOM He called, THEM He also justified: and WHOM He justified, THEM He also glorified." I'm not denying that Christ was elect, but rather, your round-about way of saying thay WE BECAME elect when we believed on (or we chose) Christ.
Love to all, Jack

Predestination and Election are not the same thing. Predestination is God delineating the end goal, Election is God choosing or selecting.God in His mercy has decided, of His own volition and sovereignty, to decide that those who believe in Christ will not merely believe and be saved by wrath: He has given them an ultimate destiny to be conformed into the image of the Son.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Vince on July 16, 2008 at 1:21am: Eph 1:4-13 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Well this won't be any surprise, I believe he chose me first because I physically did not exist before the foundations of the world...

The reasons why are in bold, as far as why me, no clue...
I absolutely only deserve the wrath of God.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by J. Matthew Barnes on July 16, 2008 at 1:52am: There is simply no way to solve this debate. For those of us who affirm Scripture as the ultimate authority we all have to admit that both theological strands are contained therein, from beginning to end. So what do we do? We can either throw all or some of the Bible out...or...we can affirm both in at least some way.

There are several options, but I'll only discuss two that I have held at various points in my life. The first is the "standard Baptist position." We simply take the best of both worlds and get rid of the stuff we don't like. So we say that we choose to follow God (which seems to be how it works in reality) and that once we are saved we are always saved (which is certainly one of the best things about Calvinism). However, as I have grown in theological understanding I have to admit that this position is more akin to Frankenstein than I am comfortable with. So a different perspective was shown to me by a historical theologian named Roger E. Olson. He said to me on numerous occasions that from a human perspective it appears that we have free will but from God's perspective (at least as Christians have traditionally understood God) we have been elected. Since we can't actually see things from God's perspective, why not live life in our own, namely, why not live life as if we have free will. To put this a bit differently: live like an Arminian (fear and trembling) but believe like a Calvinist (confidence in our chosen-ness).; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Rey Reynoso on July 16, 2008 at 7:50am: Vince said:
Eph 1:4-13 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Well this won't be any surprise, I believe he chose me first because I physically did not exist before the foundations of the world... The reasons why are in bold, as far as why me, no clue...
I absolutely only deserve the wrath of God.

Eph 1:4-13 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Same verses, and the parts that matter are bolded. I also believe that I deserve the wrath of God. But whereas some put everything on God's predetermined decree, I put everything on the Cross and Christ.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Rey Reynoso on July 16, 2008 at 7:54am: Jack said:
Rey; I think that you've missed the "WHOM He foreknew" in Rom 8:29.
Predestination is the end-goal for the WHOM He fore-knew. Love, Jack Rey Reynoso said:
Jack said:
Rey; Rom 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to THEM WHO are called according to His purpose, 29 For WHOM He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren. 30 Moreover, WHOM he did predestinate, THEM He also called: and WHOM He called, THEM He also justified: and WHOM He justified, THEM He also glorified." I'm not denying that Christ was elect, but rather, your round-about way of saying thay WE BECAME elect when we believed on (or we chose) Christ.
Love to all, Jack

Predestination and Election are not the same thing. Predestination is God delineating the end goal, Election is God choosing or selecting.God in His mercy has decided, of His own volition and sovereignty, to decide that those who believe in Christ will not merely believe and be saved by wrath: He has given them an ultimate destiny to be conformed into the image of the Son.

Not really. That God knew that there would be people identifying with Christ isn't a problem. That God foreknew This Group and gave It/Her an end goal is predestination. I don't think it says anything about these people being elected for salvation before the foundations of the world. As far as I see, Paul constantly refers the the group "Called" as folk who have answered the Called--Christ uses the term differently in the Gospels. So I don't see a problem here.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Vince on July 16, 2008 at 8:10am: Rey, I am with you on the cross! Its all about the cross and what Jesus did that allows us to be IN HIM

Rev 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jacob Klinstein on July 16, 2008 at 8:53am: Re: Eph 1:4-13,
One primary theme in Ephesians is that God is glorified through the work He accomplishes in the church (the people not organizations).

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace (also see verse 14)

so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory

The purpose of predestination in Eph. 1 is that God be glorified. The choosing is in reference to our sanctification. The Romans 8 passage speaks of predestination in terms of our being conformed to the image of Christ. These passages strongly support the idea that God's choosing is not primarily with the purpose of getting people out of hell (which we deserve), rather His choosing is with the purpose of our sanctification leading to His praise.

My opinion on "choosing". In our perception, the choice is all ours. Ultimately choice is limited by ability, and we are unable to "choose God" without Him first changing our nature, which He does by choosing us. We both "choose" in the process, but the Lord's choice is the ultimate determining factor.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Rey Reynoso on July 16, 2008 at 9:02am: The beast was permitted to go to war against the saints and conquer them. He was given ruling authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation, and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.

Oh man, Revelation. Dude, I don’t know and here’s my top reasons:

If these events are literal (in regards to the beast and all worshipping it are to those not written in the book before the foundation of the World) then they occur in time. No matter what age you put these events happening (AD 70, Future) you would have to admit that it doesn’t include all the names not written because we’re temporal people: some people have long died and didn’t get a chance to worship this best.

Now if we interpret this figuratively that there is Always a Beast and people are always bowing the knee to it then this book winds up becoming figurative as well.

I mean what do you do with strange promises like Rev 3:5 where it’s told to Sardis that their names will not be removed from the Book of Life. If it’s an unchangeable book would that even be a concern? What do you do with Rev 22 where the implication is that a person who adds to the book can be removed from the book of Life? What do you do with the bit that they’re both drawing from a large OT motif of the Book of Life and Rememberance as in Psalm 69:28, Exodus 32, Daniel 7 (I think?), Isaiah 4, and Malachi 3?

All I do know (when it comes to Revelation) is that this book is in direct relation to a slain Lamb, which is what I argue, the point. God foreknows a group who identifies with this Lamb and He predestines them to a delineated goal—in this case, not worshipping the beast and eventually not being cast into the lake of Fire. No mention is made of predestinating them to faith thus salvation/justification.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Rey Reynoso on July 16, 2008 at 9:05am: Jacob Klinstein said:
Re: Eph 1:4-13,
One primary theme in Ephesians is that God is glorified through the work He accomplishes in the church (the people not organizations).

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace (also see verse 14)

so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory

The purpose of predestination in Eph. 1 is that God be glorified. The choosing is in reference to our sanctification. The Romans 8 passage speaks of predestination in terms of our being conformed to the image of Christ. These passages strongly support the idea that God's choosing is not primarily with the purpose of getting people out of hell (which we deserve), rather His choosing is with the purpose of our sanctification leading to His praise.

My opinion on "choosing". In our perception, the choice is all ours. Ultimately choice is limited by ability, and we are unable to "choose God" without Him first changing our nature, which He does by choosing us. We both "choose" in the process, but the Lord's choice is the ultimate determining factor.

See, the weird thing is that determinists say things like God predestined certain individuals, before the foundation of the World, to believe and have faith thus be justified, yadda yadda. It's just very odd that the real point is often not-mentioned.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jacob Klinstein on July 16, 2008 at 9:29am: See, the weird thing is that determinists say things like God predestined certain individuals, before the foundation of the World, to believe and have faith thus be justified, yadda yadda. It's just very odd that the real point is often not-mentioned.

Yup. The point is sanctification & God's glory, even if the byproduct results in a deterministic theology. I can't get too excited about the byproduct, and this is where the dog gets away... The passages instruct that salvation prioritizes sanctification, not assurance. Instead of arguing for determinism, the point is that one must be on the "Glorify God in your life" team or you have no assurance.; ▶ Reply to This