a bible, theology, politics, news, networking, and discussion site

ELECTION: DID GOD CHOOSE ME, OR DID I CHOOSE HIM?

Did God elect me before the foundation of the world, based upon His fore-knowledge of my faith and/or works, Or upon His good pleasure, without consideration of my faith or works? Have at it!

▶ Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Laurel Esser on July 16, 2008 at 10:22am: "There is simply no way to solve this debate. For those of us who affirm Scripture as the ultimate authority we all have to admit that both theological strands are contained therein, from beginning to end"

In the limited experiance that I have has with this topic I have yet to find anyone who is able to find a verse in scripture that says that we chose God (again I have limited experiance and am open to correction on this point) but I find that we are quoting the same verses over and over about predestination and they are argued against. I think that we feel conviction that causes us to realize our sin and ask for forgiveness, but I don't think that we would get to that point with out the Holy Spirit working in our lives. So in my opinion, God does the chosing and then the Holy Spirit makes us choose Him, neither of which are in our control.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Ratatösk on July 16, 2008 at 10:38am: What sort of difference would it make, if Christ was the elect one and we participate in his election- You know, "chosen in him, elect in him"

Also, could it be that our concept of election should find its root in the Old Testament, so that just as the election of God's Old Covenant chosen people (and Israel's elect King) was not for the benefit of those who were chosen, the point of our calling as the people of God is not to put a limit around the set which God will ultimately bless, but to be the ones who- like the God we represent- must put ourselves out there for the sake of the world?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Gina on July 16, 2008 at 10:39am: I have yet to find anyone who is able to find a verse in scripture that says that we chose God

Every verse that commands us to repent says this. Unless they have no meaning and are there for some mysterious reason I cannot fathom...?

the Holy Spirit makes us choose Him

Well, as I've said in another thread, a rapist can rationalize to himself that the victim wants him and actually enjoys the act. Ascribing such an action to God... no.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Rey Reynoso on July 16, 2008 at 10:50am: Phil James said:
What sort of difference would it make, if Christ was the elect one and we participate in his election- You know, "chosen in him, elect in him"

Also, could it be that our concept of election should find its root in the Old Testament, so that just as the election of God's Old Covenant chosen people (and Israel's elect King) was not for the benefit of those who were chosen, the point of our calling as the people of God is not to put a limit around the set which God will ultimately bless, but to be the ones who- like the God we represent- must put ourselves out there for the sake of the world?

In emphasis, some would say one may say that it detracts from the personal election of the individual and they'd probably argue that it works against penal substitution atonement somehow. Personally I think you're right in regards to the election language corporately used in regards to Israel and then now being used by Paul in regards to Christ but I don't think it's only for this present World (although I don't think it's less than that either) but has an eschatological emphasis that the entire world is eagerly anticipating.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Laurel Esser on July 16, 2008 at 10:50am: Would we repent if the Holy Spirit did not first convict?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Laurel Esser on July 16, 2008 at 10:56am: "Well, as I've said in another thread, a rapist can rationalize to himself that the victim wants him and actually enjoys the act. Ascribing such an action to God... no."

That is not an accurate comparison to what I was saying as the act of God saving us is in no way comparable to the act of rape!; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Rey Reynoso on July 16, 2008 at 10:59am: Laurel Esser said:
Would we repent if the Holy Spirit did not first convict?

Okay, I'll bite: of course not. Why?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Ratatösk on July 16, 2008 at 11:15am: I think I agree, Rey…about the eschatological significance of election.

It’s not that we are elect to service, in contradistinction to salvation. Rather, salvation is becoming truly and maturely human; salvation is about participating in the life of our Triune God; which is to say that salvation is about lovingly, consciously, and joyfully giving ourselves away for another- just as God has done for all eternity.

Election to service for another is the privilege of living out today, the glorious life of the age to come.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Gina on July 16, 2008 at 11:25am: Laurel,
To the person who does not want "saving," there is little difference. That is just not how God operates, forcing Himself on people.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jacob Klinstein on July 16, 2008 at 11:52am: To the person who does not want "saving," there is little difference. That is just not how God operates, forcing Himself on people.

I think that sort of begs the question. If nobody wants saving before being changed (by election/regeneration), then nobody would be saved. The concept isn't that God forces one to be elect, but that He changes their being so that they desire to follow Him. It's more like birth, where a child is changed in relation to the world, so that now they are such that they want to grow, crawl, and walk (as they mature). That also makes some sense of the concept of "re-birth" that Jesus presented to Nicodemus.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Laurel Esser on July 16, 2008 at 11:52am: If God chooses us, and we also have free will to choose Him back as evident in scripture in our calling to repentance, but it is the Holy Spirit that convicts us and works in our lives to repent...what part is a choice on our side?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Rey Reynoso on July 16, 2008 at 11:56am: Laurel Esser said:
If God chooses us, and we also have free will to choose Him back as evident in scripture in our calling to repentance, but it is the Holy Spirit that convicts us and works in our lives to repent...what part is a choice on our side?

This is extremely complex. I'm not quite sure how to answer:

If God chooses Me then I don't choose Him?
If I have free will to choose Him back then I have a choice to choose Him back but He can't choose me?
If it is dependent on Him choosing Me then there is no choice on My side merely puppetry?

I really don't know how to answer.; ▶ Reply to This