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ELECTION: DID GOD CHOOSE ME, OR DID I CHOOSE HIM?

Did God elect me before the foundation of the world, based upon His fore-knowledge of my faith and/or works, Or upon His good pleasure, without consideration of my faith or works? Have at it!

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Permalink Reply by Laurel Esser on July 16, 2008 at 12:03pm: The point would be that if God chooses us, and the Holy Spirit is the one who works in our life to convict and call us to repentance, then we don't have a choice. It doesn't make us puppets. Before Christ enters our life we are slaves to sin, that's when we're the puppets. We have no free will to be able to brakes those chains. We have no freedom at all. God chooses, God convicts, God saves, and we are then free from our sin in Christ. It brings to mind the verse in James that says we cannot have two masters, the reality being we have a master, either it's God or it's sin.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Rey Reynoso on July 16, 2008 at 12:11pm: Laurel Esser said:
The point would be that if God chooses us, and the Holy Spirit is the one who works in our life to convict and call us to repentance, then we don't have a choice. It doesn't make us puppets. Before Christ enters our life we are slaves to sin, that's when we're the puppets. We have no free will to be able to brakes those chains. We have no freedom at all. God chooses, God convicts, God saves, and we are then free from our sin in Christ. It brings to mind the verse in James that says we cannot have two masters, the reality being we have a master, either it's God or it's sin.

What does election have to do with the Holy Spirit convicting? According to Christ, the Holy Spirit isn't convicting the Elect--He's convicting the World.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Gina on July 16, 2008 at 12:26pm: If God chooses us, and we also have free will to choose Him back as evident in scripture in our calling to repentance, but it is the Holy Spirit that convicts us and works in our lives to repent...what part is a choice on our side?

We choose to cooperate with the Holy Spirit's work.

Really, this idea that it must be one or the other- that it has to be either God alone working or man alone working- is an arbitrary set-up. It fits neither Scripture nor common sense ("we have free will but not really!"). It came about from seeds sown in the Donatist controversy, where St. Augustine asserted- wrongly, I believe- that sacraments were valid (with an overly mechanical view of what "validity" entails) regardless of how they were administered. The Reformers inherited this mechanical, deterministic view of God's operation, turned even more extreme by nominalism which put God at further remove from His creation.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Laurel Esser on July 16, 2008 at 12:56pm: Rom 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to THEM WHO are called according to His purpose, 29 For WHOM He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren. 30 Moreover, WHOM he did predestinate, THEM He also called: and WHOM He called, THEM He also justified: and WHOM He justified, THEM He also glorified."

It doesn't say - "but if you have to work with the Holy Spirit or God doesn't actually do all of those things."; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Rey Reynoso on July 16, 2008 at 1:13pm: Laurel Esser said:
Rom 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to THEM WHO are called according to His purpose, 29 For WHOM He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren. 30 Moreover, WHOM he did predestinate, THEM He also called: and WHOM He called, THEM He also justified: and WHOM He justified, THEM He also glorified."
It doesn't say - "but if you have to work with the Holy Spirit or God doesn't actually do all of those things."

I'm not denying the Spirit regenerates believers. I'm saying that election doesn't equate with convicting and the convicting done by the Holy Spirit in the World does not equal the predestination to glorification that occurs in the group that is In Christ.

(as an aside: Christ says very specifically says what the Spirit does: 1) work internally in believers remolding them 2) reminding believers of His teaching 3) convict the world of a) sin, b) righteousness and c) judgment--all of which are bound with Christ.

Not convicting them of sin because they're sinners but sin because they rejected Christ.
Not convicting them of the righteousness of the Law or morality but because God resurrected the Son
Not convicting them of judgment that's coming but because Christ is in heaven and the ruler of this world has been judged.); ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Gina on July 16, 2008 at 1:40pm: Laurel,
We can quote Scriptures back and forth at each other and probably not get very far, but you can't deny that there are Scriptures which speak of the necessity of us to cooperate with God's work in us, to repent, in short to choose to follow Him. Take for example Romans 1:21, "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened..." They knew God but did not acknowledge His glory. The Scriptures' words, not mine. The Scriptural formulation: You work, and God works in you. Both/and, not either/or.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Laurel Esser on July 16, 2008 at 2:54pm: Sorry if conviction has gotten the converstation a little muddled - when I mentioned that I had yet to be able to find scripture that says we are to chose God - the only thing that I was provided with was that we are called to repent. That was the arguement put against mine - we have free will because God calls us through out scripture to repent. I was then asking, is it possible to repent without the Holy Spirit working in our lives and convicting us to repent. The answer was no. So we are back to my origional question - where in scripture, when talking about salvation, being called, being chosen, being predestined etc does it say that we have free will. I know you say that we can throw scripture back and forth - but I have yet to see scripture being thrown for free will - other then the idea of repentance, which requires the work of the Holy Spirit.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by James Gibbons on July 16, 2008 at 3:18pm: Laurel Esser said:
Sorry if conviction has gotten the converstation a little muddled - when I mentioned that I had yet to be able to find scripture that says we are to chose God - the only thing that I was provided with was that we are called to repent. That was the arguement put against mine - we have free will because God calls us through out scripture to repent. I was then asking, is it possible to repent without the Holy Spirit working in our lives and convicting us to repent. The answer was no. So we are back to my origional question - where in scripture, when talking about salvation, being called, being chosen, being predestined etc does it say that we have free will. I know you say that we can throw scripture back and forth - but I have yet to see scripture being thrown for free will - other then the idea of repentance, which requires the work of the Holy Spirit.

Well, we can start at the end. Rev. 22:17b

And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Raquel on July 16, 2008 at 3:21pm: James, Why skip the first part of the verse??

Here's the whole verse:
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

is it the heareth part?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by James Gibbons on July 16, 2008 at 3:24pm: Okay, sister. Then there’s this story…

John 5:6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?
John 5:7 The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.
John 5:8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.

Short version…if you will be made whole, take up your bed and walk. Looks like free will to me.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by James Gibbons on July 16, 2008 at 3:27pm: is it the heareth part?

Hearing is big. It’s where faith comes from.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

right?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jack on July 16, 2008 at 3:27pm: If we read Romans 8:28-30, carefully, we see that the WHOM's that God foreknew are the very same ones that He glorifies. There is no hint of anyone "falling out", or "jumping into" that ELECT number of WHOM's.

Notice, also, "whom He foreknew...predestinated to be comformed to the image of His Son", does not refer to Christ (who would have to be conformed to the image of Himself-the Son?)

The WHOMs are elect individuals, before they were added to the body of Christ- not an elect body that anyone can join and BECOME elect.; ▶ Reply to This