ELECTION: DID GOD CHOOSE ME, OR DID I CHOOSE HIM?

[Jack]

Did God elect me before the foundation of the world, based upon His fore-knowledge of my faith and/or works, Or upon His good pleasure, without consideration of my faith or works? Have at it!

[Raquel]

..unless of course, we come to the Scripture believing that Jesus Christ is indeed God, thus all knowing. Would he approach those who He knew would deny Him?






(I dare you to say Judas.)

[Laurel Esser]

This chapter starts with,

"1Then the angel [fn1] showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb2through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life [fn2] with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.3No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants [fn3] will worship him.4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.5And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever." ... 17The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.

I have never looked into this passage - but are they talking about heaven already? And if not, does it have to follow that a calling to people to come and drink equals free will?

(I'm actually asking and not being rhetorical - I have difficulty understanding what revelations is talking about a lot of the time).

[James Gibbons]

The elect don’t literally appear in that verse at all, Jack. So your speculation about what it implies visa vis the elect is just that. Speculation. Grammatically and contextually, the verse appears to be much more about the sanctification of those whom He foreknew. It’s not a verse about justification at all.

We must be careful about grabbing just any verse from just anywhere and making it about soteriology. We may be obsessed with that topic. But God has other issues to discuss.

[Rey Reynoso]

Jack said:

If we read Romans 8:28-30, carefully, we see that the WHOM's that God foreknew are the very same ones that He glorifies. There is no hint of anyone "falling out", or "jumping into" that ELECT number of WHOM's.
Notice, also, "whom He foreknew...predestinated to be comformed to the image of His Son", does not refer to Christ (who would have to be conformed to the image of Himself-the Son?) The WHOMs are elect individuals, before they were added to the body of Christ- not an elect body that anyone can join and BECOME elect.

An absurdly weak and incomparable example: Everybody who is in Police Academy are cops.

Well, not really: technically they're just in police academy but the end goal of that group is to be cops.

God predestined a group (if you will a category) to be conformed to the image of the Son. That group or category will be conformed to that image. Paul's usage of "called" is this: Those who have responded to the Call. That's the grouping/category. So Paul says those who are the Called (ie responded to the call) are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son.

This verse says nothing, again, nothing about these people being elected to be "called". It simply says that this group labeled The Called are also labeled to having an End Destiny which results in Being Conformed to the Image of the Son.

Now this group that is foreknown is a group that is foreknown in Christ as has already been stated in earlier parts of Romans. So God sees this group and takes them with a purpose and prestinates them to conformation in the image of the son.

And I don't think I ever suggested that anyone can jump in or out of the Called group. Those who are labeled "Called" because they responded by faith are also labeled "Glorified". This group will be "cops".

The Elect Group (Colossians 1) is only elect on account of Christ being Elect (as in Luke 9) and thus the Head of The Body.

[Jack]

The impotent man had been willing to get up for many years, but was unable until Christ enabled him. Sinners are neither willing or able until enabled by the Spirit of God. Peace to you Brother. Jack

James Gibbons said:

Okay, sister. Then there’s this story…


John 5:6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?
John 5:7 The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.
John 5:8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.

Short version…if you will be made whole, take up your bed and walk. Looks like free will to me.

[Rey Reynoso]

Raquel said:

..unless of course, we come to the Scripture believing that Jesus Christ is indeed God, thus all knowing. Would he approach those who He knew would deny Him?




(I dare you to say Judas.)

Yes: "Haven't I chosen you twelve and one of you is the devil?"

[Gina]

That was the arguement put against mine - we have free will because God calls us through out scripture to repent. I was then asking, is it possible to repent without the Holy Spirit working in our lives and convicting us to repent. The answer was no. So we are back to my origional question - where in scripture, when talking about salvation, being called, being chosen, being predestined etc does it say that we have free will.

Again, the idea that it is either man's work alone or God's work alone is an arbitrary condition placed on the argument. This is what frustrates me about such discussions in forums where mostly western Christians are present- we are so conditioned by the Augustinian/Pelagian dichotomy that it's like it's impossible to think in any other terms.

The Holy Spirit working in synergy with a person is the Scriptural view. This really is very simple. God relates to us. Our relationship to God is one of love, not of necessity or of coercion. How is it so difficult for us to imagine this in our relationship to God, when we expect nothing different from a human relationship?

[Jack]

You mean, like the Pharisees?

Raquel said:

..unless of course, we come to the Scripture believing that Jesus Christ is indeed God, thus all knowing. Would he approach those who He knew would deny Him?






(I dare you to say Judas.)

[Raquel]

Is the heat on in here?

[James Gibbons]

Laurel Esser said:

This chapter starts with,

"1Then the angel [fn1] showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb2through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life [fn2] with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.3No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants [fn3] will worship him.4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.5And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever." ... 17The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.

I have never looked into this passage - but are they talking about heaven already? And if not, does it have to follow that a calling to people to come and drink equals free will?

(I'm actually asking and not being rhetorical - I have difficulty understanding what revelations is talking about a lot of the time).

It is very tricky. I don’t claim to be an expert on Revelation. And, of course, this is probably the most controversial NT book between Covenant Theologians and Dispensationalists. But I take this to be a doxology of sorts, a call to action, given to John at the end of his vision. It is a grand summary of what the redeemed have in store for us and a call to John (and to us) to sound the invitation.

And that statement—whoever thirsts, come and drink—I do take as a pretty strong statement that the invitation is open to all, and that we have the option to come (or not) according to our own free will.

[Laurel Esser]

It simply says that this group labeled The Called are also labeled to having an End Destiny which results in Being Conformed to the Image of the Son.

I'm not sure if I am on the same page as you on this - so if we have to respond to the call - but everyone who is called has an "End Destiny which results in Being Conformed to the Image of the Son." is there any choice then for those who are called?

God doesn't say that some of the people who are called - He says, "those who are called"

[Laurel Esser]

I think I'll have to drop out of the conversation until tomorrow - my computer is being silly and I find some of the things I post are running a little late in the conversation -see you all tomorrow!!