a bible, theology, politics, news, networking, and discussion site

ELECTION: DID GOD CHOOSE ME, OR DID I CHOOSE HIM?

Did God elect me before the foundation of the world, based upon His fore-knowledge of my faith and/or works, Or upon His good pleasure, without consideration of my faith or works? Have at it!

▶ Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Ratatösk on July 16, 2008 at 4:10pm: Maybe so, Rey, but make her do it!

We're right behind you.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jack on July 16, 2008 at 4:13pm: Rey; Only the WHOM'S that God Foreknew will be justified by faith. Rom 8:28-30.
All of God's best to you, brother. Jack

Rey Reynoso said:
Laurel Esser said:
It simply says that this group labeled The Called are also labeled to having an End Destiny which results in Being Conformed to the Image of the Son.

I'm not sure if I am on the same page as you on this - so if we have to respond to the call - but everyone who is called has an "End Destiny which results in Being Conformed to the Image of the Son." is there any choice then for those who are called?

God doesn't say that some of the people who are called - He says, "those who are called"

Those who are Justified by Faith are have no choice: they will be conformed into the image of the Son.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by James Gibbons on July 16, 2008 at 4:14pm: HEY! I'm non-violent!

Yeah, right. How many kids do you have?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Raquel on July 16, 2008 at 4:15pm: ...six...; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by James Gibbons on July 16, 2008 at 4:18pm: Rey; Only the WHOM'S that God Foreknew will be justified by faith. Rom 8:28-30.
All of God's best to you, brother. Jack

Jack, with all due respect, is that your argument for individual election to salvation? Nobody argues that He foreknew all who would choose to accept His offer. But that doesn’t mean He elected some, and not others, to be saved. Nor does it make Romans 8:28 a verse about justification.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jack on July 16, 2008 at 4:31pm: James; I referred to a passage, not a verse out of context. Romans 8:28-30. Grace to you, brother. Jack

James Gibbons said:
Rey; Only the WHOM'S that God Foreknew will be justified by faith. Rom 8:28-30.
All of God's best to you, brother. Jack

Jack, with all due respect, is that your argument for individual election to salvation? Nobody argues that He foreknew all who would choose to accept His offer. But that doesn’t mean He elected some, and not others, to be saved. Nor does it make Romans 8:28 a verse about justification.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by James Gibbons on July 16, 2008 at 4:37pm: Jack,

I just went back and re-read Romans 8, because you got me questioning myself. The entire chapter is addressed to the Church (body of believers) about the benefits of being in the body of Christ, and the process of sanctification and other benefits of having the indwelling Spirit. There is no discussion in the entire chapter of who is saved or how. If I’m wrong, the Spirit of God will instruct me when I get up yonder. But it seems pretty clear to my English major’s eyes and Spirit-indwelt heart.

Love you, brother. Nothin’ but love.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jack on July 16, 2008 at 6:01pm: James; I'd prefer that God's spirit would correct me now, and not leave me in error.
Sounds holier than thou, don't it? Love, Jack

James Gibbons said:
Jack,

I just went back and re-read Romans 8, because you got me questioning myself. The entire chapter is addressed to the Church (body of believers) about the benefits of being in the body of Christ, and the process of sanctification and other benefits of having the indwelling Spirit. There is no discussion in the entire chapter of who is saved or how. If I’m wrong, the Spirit of God will instruct me when I get up yonder. But it seems pretty clear to my English major’s eyes and Spirit-indwelt heart.

Love you, brother. Nothin’ but love.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Nicole on July 16, 2008 at 6:49pm: "But in Isaiah, it's stubborn people. In that case, its all about being hard hearted."

Ah, but Who hardens hearts?

I want to go back to what Laurel said, early. The idea that we are dead in trespasses and sins. And slaves to sin. And totally unable, of our own volition to save ourselves, raise ourselves, free ourselves.

Hebrews 12:17, and the context around it paint an interesting, frightening picture. Esau sought repentance, in tears, and could not find it. How much of his will was engaged at that point? And yet he could not save himself.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Rey Reynoso on July 16, 2008 at 8:14pm: Nicole said:
"But in Isaiah, it's stubborn people. In that case, its all about being hard hearted."
Ah, but Who hardens hearts?
I want to go back to what Laurel said, early. The idea that we are dead in trespasses and sins. And slaves to sin. And totally unable, of our own volition to save ourselves, raise ourselves, free ourselves.

Hebrews 12:17, and the context around it paint an interesting, frightening picture. Esau sought repentance, in tears, and could not find it. How much of his will was engaged at that point? And yet he could not save himself.

Pharaoh hardened his own heart, then God hardened it. Ahab wanted to believe a lie, so God sent him a lie. People are to en masse reject the truth so God lets them believe the Lie.

I don't think hardening individuals to show mercy to others has anything to do with election to salvation but everything to do with God reserving His sovereign right to do that to individuals who reject the Truth or even partially harden them because He has big plans.

Also, I don't think anyone ever said that we can save ourselves: that's a canard that Calvinists specifically like to raise. Just because someone believes doesn't mean they freed themselves or saved themselves or anything themselves. We're saved solely on by the means of God's grace, on the grounds of His mercy, by the power of Christ's death through the stupidity of faith in the God who sent the message of the foolish cross by the absurdity of preaching.

And Esau sought repentance from what? Rejecting the Gospel because he had no will to believe it before the foundation of the world? Of course not: he rejected the inheritance of the firstborn and it was given to another. This has nothing to do with election to justification but everything to do with the example of a person who came short of promise by believing it and still rejecting it for current, present-day, satisfaction. It's a sobering example but it has nothing to do with election.

(I hope I didn't sound harsh when I wrote that--I mean to only sound harsh to Raquel who is "non-violent" ); ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jack on July 16, 2008 at 10:52pm: Robert; I must differ with you: We DON'T ALL have a pretty good understanding of election, and it cannot be swept out as if it were wrapped up and agreed upon. I've seen some smoke screens or diversions arise, because (IMHO) we're getting too close to the truth.
If God merely chose an empty box, and declared that anyone that fell into the box, would be saved, WHY then, Does God bother to call it: ELECTION? It becomes an empty term, just like the box!
Nothing personal, Robert. Love you, Jack; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Gina on July 16, 2008 at 11:00pm: Hebrews 12:17, and the context around it paint an interesting, frightening picture. Esau sought repentance, in tears, and could not find it. How much of his will was engaged at that point? And yet he could not save himself.

This does not refer to salvation, but to the number one spot of his father's inheritance. The context is God's discipline of His children. To be sure if we ignore that, we will suffer.

And totally unable, of our own volition to save ourselves, raise ourselves, free ourselves.

But this is obvious and does not counter free will. Relationships are two-way, not one way. It is God's will to save all, and all who will, come. If they persevere, they'll be saved, in God's mercy.; ▶ Reply to This