How Evil Are We?

[Rey Reynoso]

This came up in another thread in regards to the Problem of Pain and Evil. Total Depravity teaches that the entire man is depraved with sin, tainted with evil, although in action not as evil as the man could be. Paul's argument in Romans 3 comes up a lot to shed light on this.

Was Paul exaggerating to make his point? Do we subsequently explain Total Depravity of man in a wrong way?

[Chen Yew Lin]

Don't really know how evil we are but I think we are not totally deprave. I think we need to define what we mean by total depravity here. To me, as long as there is the faith of God in some men, not all are totally depraved. Lk 2:14 says, 'Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased'. Some version says 'men of goodwill'.

Not totally deprave does not mean that we are not all desparately in need of forgiveness and salvation.

[Apolojedi (Daniel Eaton)]

I equate depravity with evil. It is the antithesis of God. Righteousness equates to God/Godly. Prior to salvation, we are in a total state of rebellion - anti-God as it were. After salvation, if He is truly Lord, then we have His righteousness.
D.

[Gina]

I do believe Romans 3, quoting the psalms, is using hyperbolic language, similar to Jesus when he said we should cut off our limb if it causes us to sin. Sin working in us is so serious that I believe the Scripture uses this sort of strong language to stress it, while also using extravagant language in describing the mercy of God.

[Chen Yew Lin]

If we equate depravity with evil, antithetical to God, then not all men are evil and opposed to God. Some can become totally depraved because they choose to be evil and opposed to God. Rest are in darkness, we do not see God, we don't know what He is like and we assume He is not there. Our minds are weak and easily deceived. Most hearts do not seek truth. Others are fearful not willing to pay the price for righteousness, fearful of men and compromising. Still others are selfish, greedy and unloving, worse yet others are angry and vengeful, with malice to harm and destroy.

But there are also countless godly men who seek God and walk with God like Enoch, Job, Noah, Abrabam, Joseph, Moses, John, Mary, Paul, etc, etc.,

[Vance Johnson]

The classic definition of total depravity is not that we are totally evil but that every part of us, every part of our being is bent, distorted, depraved by evil. Therefore it should not surprise us that we find people doing good.

[Joe Izaguirre]

Paul is not "exagerrating" as we do today simply because he is quoting Scripture. The argument he's making is that God is completely right to judge every man, Jew and Gentile alike, because the Scripture says it (the Scripture being the Psalm Paul is quoting). When Scripture says it, God is saying it. So, its like God is "speaking" during Paul's argument.

In addition, Paul says in Galatians that the Scripture has shut all men under sin. Sinner is an ontological reality for every person. Thus, Paul's argument is best seen, I think, in global terms, describing all of humanity. Sure, you or I don't murder, but this is not true on a corporate basis. As a whole, humans murder and the other evil mentioned. Read your local newspaper or watch your local news. You'll see Romans 3 rampantly.

Thoughts?

[Aaron Rathburn]

I was a little surprised at some of the comments in this thread; I thought surely someone would have hammered this out long before I had time to come to it.

I think scripture does sufficiently shed light on this topic. Romans 3 is great, and Romans 1 is a good example as well. Romans 8:7 is the nail in the coffin: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot." While Paul certainly does employ a certain amount of hyperbole in places, I would argue that contextually, none of these passages constitute any exaggeration.

Total Depravity is better understood as "Pervasive Depravity;" that is, the all-encompassing taintedness on humanity. The Fall of Man has put its stain on every part of man- his flesh will decay, his logic is twisted, and his heart is bent toward sin and rebellion. "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" (Jer 17:9).

The natural man is spiritually dead. He is a spiritual corpse. Just as Lazarus could not cry out to Jesus to raise him from the dead, likewise a spiritual corpse cannot cry out for renewal. "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind" (Eph 2). Man is spiritually dead, in rebellious sin, and evil. It is the Holy Spirit that regenerates the soul, with the gift of life.

Paul concludes the passage with this: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Paul is saying, "You had nothing to do with your salvation: you were evil."

Scripture teaches that humanity is shackled, "slaves to sin." A slave does not have the option to do something, it is his ROLE. He must obey his master, and the natural man's master is sin. Similarly, a slave cannot just will himself to be free; he needs a redeemer. It is the redeemer that steps in and intervenes. After which, the believer becomes a "slave of righteousness."

1 Cor 2:14- "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

To summarize:
How evil are we?

"Yahweh saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" Genesis 6:5.

-ACR

[Leslie Jebaraj]

Aaron has said most of what I wanted to say on this. And, I believe that not only was Paul not exaggerating, the Minnesota Crime Commission Report also was not exaggerating when they say that every child is capable of heinous crimes. All of us are capable of every cruel act. It is just that we don't want to get caught, which is a sign of extreme self-love (which just reveals the self-wrapped lives of ours). The good that a natural man does is simply to please himself, and not the other. He is only looking for what he could get out of the good he does for others!

[Joanie D.]

Leslie Jebaraj said:

He is only looking for what he could get out of the good he does for others!

I have to disagree with that, Leslie. It may be true of me, but I see people all around me that do good because it's the "right" thing to do. And not all of them are professing Christians. What about the person who dies saving another human being? What is he or she "getting" out of the good he or she did?

[ScottL]

For one, I think the posts show that people are on totally different grounds in regards to the phrase 'total depravity'. I think Aaron did give a good summary of it, at least from the reformed perspective. An Arminian might define the phrase somewhat differently.

Leslie, when you said, 'The good that a natural man does is simply to please himself, and not the other. He is only looking for what he could get out of the good he does for others,' I think you are more describing 'utter depravity'. Many hyper-Calvinists like to settle on this - that man can do absolutely nothing good ever in himself. But I am not so sure that is the case. Humanity can do good things. That is why we teach the beauty found in the 'general revelation' of creation. Non-believing husbands can love their wives. Non-believers can create beautiful art and heart-capturing stories. Non-believers can work hard and faithfully at their jobs. It is just that these things do not merit anything towards acceptance from God and our salvation. I believe that is the distinguishing factor between the 'utter' and 'total' categories. Yes, a non-believing husband might love their wife for selfish reasons, but it is plausible that they love their wife for love's sake - willing to give themselves up for the other. But it will not merit salvation and make them in right standing before God.

I would love to one day discuss what has happened in the heart and will of the regenerate man and should we still talk about ourselves using the terminology 'evil' and 'wicked' for those are now new creations. People love to quote Jeremiah 17:9, 'The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?' And I would say that is true of the unbeliever, as Aaron pointed out. But Jeremiah was speaking these words to a hard-hearted and obstinate people not interested in the things of God. Could we make such claims for the new creation in Christ, with a new heart, who has put on Christ, and been indwelt by the third person of the Trinity? Something to consider.

[Cathrynn]

I have trouble using the word evil - can someone explain to me an evil act, other than murdering someone. What smaller act of selfishness could be considered 'evil'?
Thinking about the people I know (and myself), I cant really think of any of them, or myself as evil? Is selfishness evil? I am feeling very lazy today so may well not take my dog for a walk, choosing to stay in instead ! Is that evil for not thinking of the dog, but of myself instead? Is laziness evil? I had a tenant a while ago, who I had to evict because he stole, lied, lived in squalor and was involved in illegal dealings (I discovered!)..........I didnt want him in my house ever again - but looking up his problems on the internet I found that he had all the qualities but one (I never felt physically threatened by him) of a psychopath. So he was 'ill', not evil? Or were his actions evil? not the man.

Cathrynn

[Leslie Jebaraj]

Joanie: It maybe true of a Christian too, but I was talking about a natural man, meaning a pre-Christian. The Bible teaches that our hearts are so warped up, that it affects our motives too. It is hard for us to believe that, and that too is a sign of our depraved hearts.

Joanie D. said:

Leslie Jebaraj said:

He is only looking for what he could get out of the good he does for others!

I have to disagree with that, Leslie. It may be true of me, but I see people all around me that do good because it's the "right" thing to do. And not all of them are professing Christians. What about the person who dies saving another human being? What is he or she "getting" out of the good he or she did?