In Defense of Seeker Friendly Churches

[Apolojedi (Daniel Eaton)]

I wrote a blog on the topic. Thought we could discuss it here. Check it out and come back and comment....

[H]

Well, there can be no doubt that you're an extrovert, Rey. I would have guessed ENTP.
I'm surrounded by extroverts (as well as testosterone) at my house - it can be a lonely existence for someone who asks only for a quiet place to brood.

Cool stuff - thanks for sharing!


Rey Reynoso said:

I always land differently in the tests. My recent test was ESTP. I've also landed on ENFP, ESTJ and ENTP.

Basically I'm an angry Borg who likes Jedi duels.

So when I write, I read what someone said then pretty much know where I'm going with what I'm saying but have to keep restating what I'm saying in different ways because I know someone will come at me from a specific angle and attack my flank.

In other words, I like to constantly use "in other words". lol

Edit: I also have little patience with what I find dumb. That's harsh but I find that if I'm talking with someone who just isn't engaging what I'm saying or is dropping new meanings on words or refers to textbooks, I quickly shut down and nod my head while in my mind I'm checking off what I have to do later that evening.

[Char]

Wasn't there a group for all the stuff in our lives outside of theology?

I do a lot more moving around of text and changing also. I usually have separate paragraphs for each thought and one is not necessarily meant to flow from the other.

Cluttering appears to be a fluency disorder. Some think it is an exaggeration of normal speech discontinuities. For me signs of it occur because I have too many thoughts in my head at once and they all want to come out at the same time, but none of them are verbal and I repeatedly change my mind about how I want to say them and in what order.

For example if I saw a dog digging at something when cluttering badly I would be liable to say, "that dog, he there uhhhh di-doing, uh you know, digging, w-w-what? I mean whaaatishe-tra-tras-garbage?-doing-diggina'ovtheh?"

It isn't always that bad, but I always have to repeat what I'm saying for other people to understand, sometimes as much as four times. I also commit spoonerisms and malapropisms a lot and frequently slur words and stutter. I interrupt myself. Half the words I use in any given sentence are like, uh, you know, I mean and frick. I tend to talk really fast at the end of a sentence because I am trying to get to the next thought and sometimes that second thought comes out in the middle of the first one. My speech cadence is jarring and irregular.

I noticed it a few years ago when I was on the practicum for my job, and I mentioned it to my parents. They told me "but you've always talked like that."

Oh.

I read an online page about people who are INTP and it said INTP people should not be caregivers.

Maybe that's why one resident told us this morning, "I hate this chair!

...About as much as I hate you guys!"

Haha. She always pauses for effect. It never fails to make me laugh.

[James Gibbons]

NTs in general are not good caregivers, precisely because y’all are such good problem solvers. My father in law is an NT rocket scientist (yeah, really, a rocket scientist). He cares deeply about people. But he always expresses it by telling them the solution to the problem that is making their life difficult, rather than empathizing with how they feel and helping them cope with the current situation, while working toward a more desirable future (which is what an NF would do). We NFs make great caregivers and counselors, but we’re such saps. I sometimes look at the way I deal with things and just roll my eyes at myself. Must be really amusing/irritating to NTs.

Amazed I reached the age I’ve reached and never heard of cluttering. Fascinating.

[Char]

I hadn't heard of it until fairly recently either. It is often confused with stuttering, but the stutterer knows what he wants to say and lacks the physical capacity to get it out. The clutterer is having a hard time deciding what he wants to say and how he wants to say it. Basically his communication skills are crap.

Does it make a difference that I am sometimes F and sometimes J? I find that in my job it is actually not good to be too compassionate. The work is rather crushing for those people, and they often have a hard time doing what needs to be done.

[James Gibbons]

Char said:

I hadn't heard of it until fairly recently either. It is often confused with stuttering, but the stutterer knows what he wants to say and lacks the physical capacity to get it out. The clutterer is having a hard time deciding what he wants to say and how he wants to say it. Basically his communication skills are crap.
Does it make a difference that I am sometimes F and sometimes J? I find that in my job it is actually not good to be too compassionate. The work is rather crushing for those people, and they often have a hard time doing what needs to be done.

Your observation about “what needs to be done” convinces me that you are a T. Myers-Briggs can be a little fuzzy. My older sister is a J at work (she is an executive for a state headquarters of a mainstream denomination) and a P at home, where she likes to be sort of spontaneous and easy going. There are personality profiles that are not loosey-goosey like that. But they’re not as much fun, because they require a psychologist to interpret them. I actually simulate the T thing when I’m doing strategic consulting. But it wears me out.

[H]

Char: What is your job?

My job (although I'm absent from it at the moment) mandates a firm hand (teaching inner-city high school students) but I find it difficult once I know too much about their lives. I am always making jokes about dropping out of society, repairing to a high mountaintop cottage somewhere to tend my vegetable garden in flowing robes, surrounded by contented ruminants (and cats), but I actually sometimes wonder if I'm really joking.

James: I know about being a sap, although because I know this about myself, I do guard against it, because I'm...guarded. LOL

So...y'all now know when you see my posts (and I see yours) just where our thoughts are coming from.

If you Google your type (just the acronym) you get a really nice, in-depth portrait. James, did you know you're "The Dreamer?"

This thread is hopelessly hijacked. Have we exhausted the subject or should we move it? Because I want to know if, and if so, HOW, Char's clutter shows up in her art (since it's coming from a different part of the brain).

Which leads us to perception...

Sorry. I could blab about this stuff all day.




Char said:

I hadn't heard of it until fairly recently either. It is often confused with stuttering, but the stutterer knows what he wants to say and lacks the physical capacity to get it out. The clutterer is having a hard time deciding what he wants to say and how he wants to say it. Basically his communication skills are crap.

Does it make a difference that I am sometimes F and sometimes J? I find that in my job it is actually not good to be too compassionate. The work is rather crushing for those people, and they often have a hard time doing what needs to be done.

[James Gibbons]

James, did you know you're "The Dreamer?"

Yes. From the age of … before I knew my age…I have done long daily walks, feeding myself narrative in my head.

I say “dreamer.” My wife says “slacker.” I say visionary. She says slacker. She’s right, of course.

[H]

That's OK...the world needs dreamers. And slackers. Who knows that that inner narrative may one day yield?



James Gibbons said:

James, did you know you're "The Dreamer?"

Yes. From the age of … before I knew my age…I have done long daily walks, feeding myself narrative in my head.

I say “dreamer.” My wife says “slacker.” I say visionary. She says slacker. She’s right, of course.

[James Gibbons]

That’s what I keep saying!

[James Gibbons]

Actually, it’s very helpful when I preparing for platform speaking (what non-PBs call preaching). I probably walk through a 35 minute message (no pun intended) 15 or 20 times before I actually give it from the platform. I may not have much to say, but at least I say it with a beginning, middle, ending, illustrations, comic timing, and pauses in the right places. So, there’s that.

[Char]

I work in a long term care facility.

By doing what needs to be done I meant that one can not allow themselves to take the negative things that happen personally or they will burn out very quickly. This is not just my perception, it's the way it is. You're going to get bitten and kicked and sworn at and spit on and end up covered in poop at some point in the job. You're going to watch some of them literally rot from the inside out and you will be there when they die. If you took it all personally you'd go insane.

I have also seen that those who "feel too much" often find themselves unable to make the residents do things they don't want to do but need to do (for instance tying them into their chairs or making them take baths-they all HATE baths) because they feel bad for them. As do we all, but whatever care you give has to be tempered by what is best for the residents and for you, and there does have to be some detachment.

No I don't think the cluttering affects my work, because it is visual in nature. I can start with that big picture of what I want to do and work my way down to the details much more easily. And I don't need words to do it. I do plan artworks like the dickens though.

I am a wizard...? Yes I can see the world needing more Jameses. Provided they don't all like ukulele solos.

[H]

No no no, I didn't mean "perception" in terms of how you see what needs to be done... I mean perception in terms of how we trick our brain into doing something (solving a theoretical problem, for example) in a manner in which it ordinarily wouldn't...

Like drawing an object upside down to grasp it in terms of its being, rather than its parts...or using negative space to shift perception from the object itself to the forms that surround it...

Or teaching people who can't talk (or who have other receptive/expressive disorders) to communicate by singing...

I realize I'm giving the word "perception" a rather broad meaning here; maybe someone can come up with a better word.

I guess I was wondering about "clutter" and "process" when you're in creative mode...sorry if I'm being a noodge! I am always extremely interested in process when it comes to creativity, but maybe this discussion is wandering too far afield. :-)


Char said:

I work in a long term care facility.

By doing what needs to be done I meant that one can not allow themselves to take the negative things that happen personally or they will burn out very quickly. This is not just my perception, it's the way it is. You're going to get bitten and kicked and sworn at and spit on and end up covered in poop at some point in the job. You're going to watch some of them literally rot from the inside out and you will be there when they die. If you took it all personally you'd go insane.

I have also seen that those who "feel too much" often find themselves unable to make the residents do things they don't want to do but need to do (for instance tying them into their chairs or making them take baths-they all HATE baths) because they feel bad for them. As do we all, but whatever care you give has to be tempered by what is best for the residents and for you, and there does have to be some detachment.

No I don't think the cluttering affects my work, because it is visual in nature. I can start with that big picture of what I want to do and work my way down to the details much more easily. And I don't need words to do it. I do plan artworks like the dickens though.

I am a wizard...? Yes I can see the world needing more Jameses. Provided they don't all like ukulele solos.