a bible, theology, politics, news, networking, and discussion site

irresistible grace

If God's grace is irresistible then why do we (all of humanity) resist on a daily basis?

Permalink Reply by Nicole on October 6, 2008 at 10:44am: I think the term is used by Calvinists to refer exclusively to the moment of conversion. It's not to say that every time the Holy Spirit works in their hearts they respond - or we'd all be fully sanctified. It's to say that when God calls you out of the darkness into the light you come. When He calls you from deadness in trespasses and sins, you come. And, not by anything you can do - not by your own brilliance in seeing the light; not by your ability to spot truth - but soley by the Lord's grace and mercy.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by karl kleinpaste on October 6, 2008 at 10:53am: why do we...resist on a daily basis?

Because we're dumb as a post, both individually and collectively? :-); ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Carl Gobelman on October 6, 2008 at 10:54am: Raquel,

Nicole is basically right as I understand it. Irresistible Grace refers to God's effectual calling regarding salvation.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by ScottL on October 6, 2008 at 10:56am: Nicole put it well.

I would say that, for the five-pointer who believes in total depravity from the Calvinist view - that every part of humanity has been affected and corrupted by sin and, thus, the inability of humanity to merit salvation - for me, it seems this can only lead one to embrace irresistible grace. Matter of fact, I think if one is going to believe the Calvinistic way on any of the five points, I think it will lead to embracing all five. They all interlink with one another.

But, as Nicole said, it is not that humanity cannot resist or reject God - His general grace in life or special grace in Christ by the Spirit. It's just that when God does truly move upon the heart of a human, they will be drawn into that wooing. A good Calvinist believes that God must convert and change the will for it to actually want to receive His grace and believe upon Christ. Hence, God knows He must do that irresistible work of grace for us to receive of Him.

By the way, to avoid any harsh comments, I am only explaining my understanding of the Calvinistic view. I am not saying whether I agree or not. :)

Interestingly enough, John Piper wrote a little article today on his blog to say Happy 305th Birthday to Jonathan Edwards. It might be of interest in regards to this topic.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Rey Reynoso on October 6, 2008 at 11:14am: Raquel: Because the best way to make your doctrine irrefutable is to ensure that there's no way to make it completely unprovable. The answer to the Remonstrants was strong enough that they wouldn't be able to come up with Something without (as some thought) diminishing God. We can just as easily question the (now made up) doctrine of incalculable risk by arguing that everything God does is risky but it works out exactly as He planned. How can we know that all of God's actions are risky? Well because they're based on so many factors. Well how can we know his plans never fail? Because everything that occurs comes to be.

"Pheh" -Char from various posts where Rey writes; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Carl Gobelman on October 6, 2008 at 11:21am: Rey Reynoso said:
Raquel: Because the best way to make your doctrine irrefutable is to ensure that there's no way to make it completely unprovable. The answer to the Remonstrants was strong enough that they wouldn't be able to come up with Something without (as some thought) diminishing God. We can just as easily question the (now made up) doctrine of incalculable risk by arguing that everything God does is risky but it works out exactly as He planned. How can we know that all of God's actions are risky? Well because they're based on so many factors. Well how can we know his plans never fail? Because everything that occurs comes to be.

"Pheh" -Char from various posts where Rey writes

Rey,

I believe, and I may be wrong, but IG was set up against a more Arminian view in which unredeemed humanity is capable of responding (positively or negatively) to the gospel offer on his own. If one assumes that IG is false, then one is left with the notion that God's effectual calling can be refused (thereby rendering it non-effectual). This could lead to the potential that no one responds to the gospel offer (obviously un-true considering we're all here, but potential nonetheless).

IG really needs to be understood in the context of the other four points.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by J. Matthew Barnes on October 6, 2008 at 11:27am: I'll respond to the question with a question -- If God's grace is irresistible, then why is there a hell?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Carl Gobelman on October 6, 2008 at 11:31am: J. Matthew Barnes said:
I'll respond to the question with a question -- If God's grace is irresistible, then why is there a hell?

In short...because God, in his sovereignty, chose to extend his irresistible grace to only a select few, not all.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Rey Reynoso on October 6, 2008 at 11:31am: Yeah Carl, like I said: an irrefutable doctrine in response to the Remonstrants charge. It makes the 5-Points air tight but it doesn't make them right.

Each and every single point of 5 (or even 7?) point calvinism is completely irrefutable and ultimately uses an illogical (and once again irrefutable) defeater used out of context. (1) Who are you to talk back to God and (2) people only believe this because of their man-centered doctrine.

IG hangs from the nail of TD which ensures no one would believe without IG...; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by James Gibbons on October 6, 2008 at 11:34am: Carl Gobelman said:
J. Matthew Barnes said:
I'll respond to the question with a question -- If God's grace is irresistible, then why is there a hell?

In short...because God, in his sovereignty, chose to extend his irresistible grace to only a select few, not all.

But how could this be true, Carl, if His desire is that none should be lost?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by J. Matthew Barnes on October 6, 2008 at 11:43am: If God's grace is only irresistible to the elect, then its not really irresistible.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Carl Gobelman on October 6, 2008 at 11:44am: James Gibbons said:
Carl Gobelman said:
J. Matthew Barnes said:
I'll respond to the question with a question -- If God's grace is irresistible, then why is there a hell?

In short...because God, in his sovereignty, chose to extend his irresistible grace to only a select few, not all.

But how could this be true, Carl, if His desire is that none should be lost?

The difference is between prescriptive will and sovereign will. God's prescriptive will are his revealed commands to us. One example of God's prescriptive will is God's command for all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). Yet it is patently obvious that not everyone repents (or has repented). We can, and often do, violate God's prescriptive will.

God's sovereign will is, by and large, unknown to us; yet it is by this aspect of God's will that all things are governed (Ephesians 1:11 cf. Deuteronomy 29:29). It is this aspect of his will that determines who will be saved when, and to whom IG is extended (Romans 9).

God may desire all men to be saved (prescriptive will), but he also acknowledges that not all will be saved (Matthew 7:13-14).; ▶ Reply to This