irresistible grace

[Raquel]

If God's grace is irresistible then why do we (all of humanity) resist on a daily basis?

[James Gibbons]

Carl Gobelman said:

James Gibbons said:

Hey. Where’s Raquel. She can’t open this can of worms and then just walk away. Get back here, sister. Put on your gloves.

You noticed too? I was going to say something, but didn't want it taken out of context. I'm still relatively new to Theologica...

Raquel, we love ya! Come back!!!!

She’s not scared. The’s cammied up in the brush, ready to pounce. It’s a trap.

[James Gibbons]

Phil James said:

Does crap bags really exhaust the possibilities?

There’s stupid and confused.

[Rey Reynoso]

Char said:

I admit to the presupposition that if Christianity doesn't teach depravity it throws it into doubt. Honestly that's what convinced me of Christianity in the first place-this was the only view that actually admitted that people were the utter bags of of crap I found us to be in my experience. For me it's that or nihilism because man are we crap bags.

How does it work when you come up with the same interpretation without the grid? Arguments abound on NT texts, but I always felt the OT preached this more.

Well this is where I think Scripture is more careful than we are. It makes it a point to say that we're in the image of God, it makes it a point to say how much people are cherished, it makes it a point to show the inherent value of Humanity while simultaneously making a point that people fall short of God's glory, that humanity's shame is that it has (in its stupidity) cast off its maker, and that (in its utter worst) stood up on its hind legs, raised its fists to the sky and killed God manifested in the flesh.

The best evidence in the text shows man doing this willfully (with ability of knowing what it was doing) and stupidly (relying on its own wisdom over God's wisdom). The fact that God's (for all intents and purposes) stupid plan is the very plan that proves man's wisdom complete and utter crap just shows how much it is God's right to have mercy (to humanity) as it is his right to condemn.

Isn't it possible to have a system of the utter crappiness of man while showing his complete ability to understand the message and reject the message without implementing some strange salvation prior to salvation to make salvation ultimately possible? I think this goes right to the foolishness of the message: If faith comes from hearing and hearing by the Word of God and that God decided this message should be proclaimed by the weak power of preaching then it stands to reason that men (in their pride) will reject the message as beneath them.

That makes more sense to me than the opposing system: men either not understanding the message because they are completely unable, or not being able to respond to the message because they are completely unable or whatever other permutations that consist of strict definitions of death.

[Char]

Meh. I don't know why everyone else I know can't see what is the obvious truth of God but that well...they can't. They're not stupid. They're not misinformed. They just don't get it.

[Kim]

James,

I don't think that God made some incapable of recieving (that is the negative that humans are always irresistably drawn to :) ) God made some of us capable to recieve. He looked and there was no one He called and none would answer but his arm was not shortened that it could not save.
James Gibbons said:

Char said:

I admit to the presupposition that if Christianity doesn't teach depravity it throws it into doubt. Honestly that's what convinced me of Christianity in the first place-this was the only view that actually admitted that people were the utter bags of of crap I found us to be in my experience. For me it's that or nihilism because man are we crap bags.
How does it work when you come up with the same interpretation without the grid? Arguments abound on NT texts, but I always felt the OT preached this more.

Crapbags, yes. But dead crapbags, meaning crapbags incapable of hearing, understanding, and accepting an offer to be made perfect…free of charge? That’s what I don’t see. The blood of Christ is sufficient for the remission of all sin (+20 percent—trespass offering). It is offered to all. How cynical would it be to offer it to all, but then say, “but I’m making some of you incapable of receiving the offer.” That’s just not the God I know.

Crapbags! You crack me up, sister.

[Rey Reynoso]

Char said:

Meh. I don't know why everyone else I know can't see what is the obvious truth of God but that well...they can't. They're not stupid. They're not misinformed. They just don't get it.

Well even this makes more sense than people are totally unable to hear, respond, comprehend or believe the message of the cross that was stipulated to be accepted by faith as a kid without first being forced to believe via an irresistible love.

Side note: we're not called to believe all the truth of God. People are called to believe a three part truth of God: That there is a God, a God Saves those who believe, and that He accomplished this through Christ who died and rose from the grave. With such a thing in place, God will then save and that to the uttermost.

[Kim]

Carl,

Theologica is 4 mo. old. You have been here for half that time no?

Carl Gobelman said:

James Gibbons said:

Hey. Where’s Raquel. She can’t open this can of worms and then just walk away. Get back here, sister. Put on your gloves.

You noticed too? I was going to say something, but didn't want it taken out of context. I'm still relatively new to Theologica...

Raquel, we love ya! Come back!!!!

[Char]

How does it make more sense when it's saying the same thing?

[Rey Reynoso]

Carl Gobelman said: This is one of those issues. Calvinism or Arminianism, if both are pushed to logical extremes, do damage to the Biblical text.

Amen.

[Carl Gobelman]

Kim said:

Carl,

Theologica is 4 mo. old. You have been here for half that time no?

Carl Gobelman said:

James Gibbons said: I think I joined in June, so that's.......approximately 3 to 4 months. So I guess I'm not that new. It just seemed so well established when I joined.

Hey. Where’s Raquel. She can’t open this can of worms and then just walk away. Get back here, sister. Put on your gloves.

You noticed too? I was going to say something, but didn't want it taken out of context. I'm still relatively new to Theologica...

Raquel, we love ya! Come back!!!!

Actually, I've been here since July, so I guess I'm not that new afterall...Theologica just seemed so well-established.

[Rey Reynoso]

Char said:

How does it make more sense when it's saying the same thing?

No, actually it's not. Total Inability says people, in essence, don't believe because they're missing a component. They're a car that doesn't go right because it doesn't have access to making right turns.

What you said is in essence, the Car doesn't go right because the car is stupid or confused--but notbecause it can't go right.

Of course, I don't think the reason people refuse to believe are because they're stupid or confused, I just think that [people being confused or stupid] would make more sense than some humans having a component that other humans are missing and thus making Salvation (ultimately) based on a component and not by faith that God so often keeps talking about....even if that component comes by irresistible mechanic work.

Of course, I might've misread you.

Edit: Darn: I did misread you. I had to go back and reread. Sorry for stuffing words in your mouth. My component speech still stands, but what I perceived you to be saying should be retracted.

[Ratatösk]

Nothing but Crap Bags?