irresistible grace

[Raquel]

If God's grace is irresistible then why do we (all of humanity) resist on a daily basis?

[Ratatösk]

Jack, the question isn't about the sinners guilt; its about the sincerity of the offer.

If I see a man talking to a couple of people who’ve survived a car crash (lets say from driving while intoxicated) and who are laying dangerously over a train track, and upon drawing closer hear him say “Get up so I can help you.” to the first, then shrug his shoulders grab the second and drag them away to the safety of his car, only to return so as to continue to talk to the passed out person... and watch until the train busts them wide open, if I come upon such a situation, would it be fair to say that the offer made to the helpless man left to die, was less than sincere?

If you were on the jury, what would your conscience compel you to say?

Ya’ll want it both ways. When it’s a question of whether God is tricking, you want to emphasis the offer to which any one may respond; but when the question is in regards to whether men and women have a bit of lovely marshmallow in the center of the crap bag (which they truly are), you want to talk about God having to drag people about.

You can’t have both, Jack- at least not in the same thread.

[Roger Servin]

Grace is resistible until God overcomes that resistance... God doesn't grant saving grace to everyone, or else everyone would be saved and we know that is not true.

[Jack]

Phil; your simile doesn't work. The passed out person doesn't hear the rescuer speaking. The Sinner hears but refects offer. more like a conscious drunk on the tracks, saying "I don't want to get up, I think i'm better off on the tracks" Jack

Phil James said:

Jack, the question isn't about the sinners guilt; its about the sincerity of the offer.

If I see a man talking to a couple of people who’ve survived a car crash (lets say from driving while intoxicated) and who are laying dangerously over a train track, and upon drawing closer hear him say “Get up so I can help you.” to the first, then shrug his shoulders grab the second and drag them away to the safety of his car, only to return so as to continue to talk to the passed out person... and watch until the train busts them wide open, if I come upon such a situation, would it be fair to say that the offer made to the helpless man left to die, was less than sincere?

If you were on the jury, what would your conscience compel you to say?

Ya’ll want it both ways. When it’s a question of whether God is tricking, you want to emphasis the offer to which any one may respond; but when the question is in regards to whether men and women have a bit of lovely marshmallow in the center of the crap bag (which they truly are), you want to talk about God having to drag people about.

You can’t have both, Jack- at least not in the same thread.

[Jack]

Phil; Quoting you: "if you were on the jury..." Do you think that man has a right to judge God! And decide whether God' works are fair and righteous? Sinful men do judge God and even the saints find fault with Him!
It is not a case of what I judge to be right and fair, but rather, What does God's word say? And that should be the end of it. Is man the measure of all things, or is God the measure of all things? You are arguing like a humanist. We are all subject to this error, since the sin still in us continues to fight against the Spirit and word of God!
This not an attack upon you, but upon your argument and reasoning, on this point. The Geezer

Phil James said:

Jack, the question isn't about the sinners guilt; its about the sincerity of the offer.

If I see a man talking to a couple of people who’ve survived a car crash (lets say from driving while intoxicated) and who are laying dangerously over a train track, and upon drawing closer hear him say “Get up so I can help you.” to the first, then shrug his shoulders grab the second and drag them away to the safety of his car, only to return so as to continue to talk to the passed out person... and watch until the train busts them wide open, if I come upon such a situation, would it be fair to say that the offer made to the helpless man left to die, was less than sincere?

If you were on the jury, what would your conscience compel you to say?

Ya’ll want it both ways. When it’s a question of whether God is tricking, you want to emphasis the offer to which any one may respond; but when the question is in regards to whether men and women have a bit of lovely marshmallow in the center of the crap bag (which they truly are), you want to talk about God having to drag people about.

You can’t have both, Jack- at least not in the same thread.

[Ratatösk]

Robert, thank you for the help. :-)

I often wonder about whether I should be more careful to include explanations etc for those who might be watching, but unfamiliar with the historic discussion. My posts tend to be so long already, though.....

I'm familiar with the distinctions in this debate. I once was a flaming Presbyterian- actually got though Owens Death of Death. :-)

As far as the "You have it or you don't." Grace isn't stuff. Grace is God's favor and person. Every being lives and moves and has its being in Grace. There is no other way.

Jack, when you want to defend the sincerity of God in offering salvation, you claim a metaphor where men hear a sincere offer but reject it. The sincerity depends upon the ability to respond.

When you want to talk about total inability, you claim that men are stone dead.

What happens if you switch the metaphors?

God sincerely offers salvation to a dead man without granting him life???

Christianity is the true humanism, Jack. My understanding is that human beings (me in particular) are to be like God; I find what God is like by looking to Christ.

What is your standard if not God as revealed in Christ?