The Limits of Christ's Atonement

[Rey Reynoso]

I have my theories but I'm not putting them up here. Here's the question:

Was Christ's Atonement limited? If you don't like that phrasing Was Christ's atonement particular (to specific individuals)?

If so, say how and if not, say why.

[ScottL]

Rey - always starting the controversial topics. :)

[JacksonS]

Yes absolutely, the atonement is limited to those who repent and put their faith in Christ. The only individuals who reap the benefits of the cross are those who receive it. (cites 50 verses)

[Jack]

TULIP! The Geezer

[Ratatösk]

Talk about tradition trumping the clear teaching of scripture.

I was once a flaming Calvinist; I know where all the embarrassing passages are!

[Jack]

Phil; So, You've fallen from grace? I'll pray for you! Heh! Heh! The Geezer

Phil James said:

Talk about tradition trumping the clear teaching of scripture.

I was once a flaming Calvinist; I know where all the embarrassing passages are!

[Ratatösk]

You have no idea.

I covet your prayers, Jack. :-)

[Jack]

Jacksons; I agree with your statement, except, sinners don't put Their faith in Christ! Faith is a gift of God"s grace! Ephesians 2:8,9.

JacksonS said:

Yes absolutely, the atonement is limited to those who repent and put their faith in Christ. The only individuals who reap the benefits of the cross are those who receive it. (cites 50 verses)

[James Gibbons]

Jack said:

Jacksons; I agree with your statement, except, sinners don't put Their faith in Christ! Faith is a gift of God"s grace! Ephesians 2:8,9.
JacksonS said:

Yes absolutely, the atonement is limited to those who repent and put their faith in Christ. The only individuals who reap the benefits of the cross are those who receive it. (cites 50 verses)

Could someone help Jack and me with the Greek grammar here.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

There are three possible antecedents to the word “that” in Ephesians 2:8: “grace,” “faith,” or the clause, “you are saved.” The limited atonement folks always make the antecedent “faith.” But I’m not sure about that. Look at the greater context.

Ephesians 2:4-10 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Overwhelmingly, the passage is about the grace of God. The passage is not about faith. Why, then, do we pluck these two verses out of context, and make faith the antecedent. Seems to be contrary to the overall meaning of the passage.

Must be something in the Greek. Little help, please.

[Ratatösk]

There's an assumption in your commetn, Jack, that colors everything. It is very relevant to the discussions on sacramentality, too.

Jack, you assume an identity between God's work and the response of the creature. In other words, if God works faith in us, then it must not be our faith- its God's faith.

Scripture doesn't present it in this way, thoguh. We are to believe. It is (as Christ repeatedly stated) our faith, but it is also God who works that faith in us.

Just so, God's grace, through real creaturely means.

Our ancient faith is filled with both/ands. The either/or's take us where we don't want to go.

[James Gibbons]

Some Greek scholar is gonna have to jump in here, cause I can’t be coming down on Phil’s side. That would mean the day of the Lord is upon us!

[Jack]

Phil: God, alone, works that faith in us. There is nothing that man contributes to God's gracious salvation!
Man only responds to God, after He is regenerated. Yes, I know, This is Calvinism. The doctrine is called "Monergism", meaning that God, alone, does everything to bring about our salvation. We Only respond, in faith, after we are regenerated! Salvation is of the Lord!
Phil James said:

There's an assumption in your commetn, Jack, that colors everything. It is very relevant to the discussions on sacramentality, too.

Jack, you assume an identity between God's work and the response of the creature. In other words, if God works faith in us, then it must not be our faith- its God's faith.

Scripture doesn't present it in this way, thoguh. We are to believe. It is (as Christ repeatedly stated) our faith, but it is also God who works that faith in us.

Just so, God's grace, through real creaturely means.

Our ancient faith is filled with both/ands. The either/or's take us where we don't want to go.

[James Gibbons]

Hey Rey. Way to drop this bomb and run, brother.