Theologica

a bible, theology, politics, news, networking, and discussion site

I have had someone tell me just recently that the being "born again" experience is separate to the "conversion" experience.  Is this true?  I always thought they were one and the same.  I am learning here and want to draw on the theological minds here :)

 

Forgive me if this has been discussed although I have done a quick search.

Views: 327

Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Tks for noting my last sentence that I left off when fixing my original reply :)

 

I am not sure of his leaning (charismatic or otherwise) other than only to Calvinism but with a twist (in many other areas too).  It does not make sense and as yet he has not replied to me.  So I wait....

John from Down Under said:

His position doesn't make sense the way he worded it, but Calvo's have a more sophisticated way of distinguishing that regeneration precedes faith.

Is this guy of charismatic extraction?


Linda Ruth said:

My desire is to understand his position :)

Yeah, he's charismatic was my other thought.
Bingo Don - this is my understanding....

Don said:

Linda,

 

Based on what I think you mean by born again and conversion, I would say they occur at the same time.  The Ethiopian Eunuch was born again during his conversion.

 

 

Don

It might help to know the meaning of the terms. words evolve and one groups definition might have moved off from what it originally used to mean. being "born again" is described in John chapter 3 and has been traditionally used to describe the phenomenon where the Holy Spirit moves and gives new birth.  This can manifest as repentance or a confession which is what we nowadays call "conversion".  

Technically the phenomenon in John 3 is where we get the teaching of regeneration.  The Holy Spirit regenerates and our response is repentance and faith.  The regeneration is being  "born again" and the repentance and faith is "conversion".   You could say that they are descriptions of the same event.  It's the technicalities that confuse.  ^_^

It should be noted, what Damian means by logical order vs. chronological order is that some or all of the steps (of the two views of ordo salutis) happen - as far as we are concerned with time - simultaneously.

 

So, something like a grouping of Damian's replies might help.  In brackets are those things that happen simultaneously to each other: 

 
In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is [[1) election, 2) predestination]]*, [3) gospel call [4) inward call** 5) regeneration**, 6) conversion (faith & repentance)**, 7) justification]], 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification.

* before the foundation of the world

** salvific grace that logically lead to justification
in blue - salvation

 

In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is 1) outward call [[2) faith/election, 3) repentance, 4) regeneration, 5) justification]], 6) perseverance, 7) glorification.

Hope that helps. 

There are some better posts above, but here is my 2 cents.

 

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God:

 

***   "Believeth" is the present tense participle that speaks of the continuous action of conversion.

***   "Begotten of God" is the perfect tense verb which speaks of a past action with the present results of the present tense participle (believeth).

 

I would agree that John is speaking of a logical order, and not a chronological order.  Being "begotten of God" is not the same thing as "believing."  But being "begotten of God" (regeneration) is the cause of believing.

True, which is why I referenced Wayne Grudems Systematic Theology which will give the whole order of salvation beginning with election. He is a 5 point Calvinist. Linda, the Calvinist teaching is that man cannot choose God in his totally depraved condition until God enables him which is what regeneration does. Then, once one  has the ability they will repent and believe. Faith is engendered in regeneration. That is the calvinist view.

Tim said:
It's a doctrine of Calvinism.
Thankyou for your thoughts and recommendations...

Being born again is the same as your conversion.  And it is not an experience though you might recall it by way of an experience.  Being born again occurs when one believes the gospel. 

Of course Calvinism serves up the misnomer that one is regenerated first in order to believe.  This stems from rationalism, not exegesis of the Scriptures. 

Our Lord made clear in the parable of the sower that it is the Word (the seed) that when received gives life, not before.

Faith comes by hearing Rom 10:17 (agreed) and YES when it is RECEIVED and falls on good soil it bares fruit but as we can see by the other examples that faith (by hearing) is not always sustained - it is received by some but not always sustained.  Where they truly born again?

Alex Guggenheim said:

Being born again is the same as your conversion.  And it is not an experience though you might recall it by way of an experience.  Being born again occurs when one believes the gospel. 

Of course Calvinism serves up the misnomer that one is regenerated first in order to believe.  This stems from rationalism, not exegesis of the Scriptures. 

Our Lord made clear in the parable of the sower that it is the Word (the seed) that when received gives life, not before.

I don't want to launch into an argument about Calvinism and other views but from a Reformed perspective this parable can be understood in the following way:

 

The seed is the word of God which is the same seed scattered upon all of the various soils. The difference therefore in the illustration is focused on the soil not the seed. Some of the soil is hard, some good etc.

 

Regeneration or being born again is related to the condition of the soil. That is that the natural man is hardened against God and His Word being enslaved to sin. (c.f. 1 Cor 2:14, Rom. 8:7, etc.) By born again a Calvinist simply means that God prepares the heart of the sinner to receive the Gospel... i.e. he prepares the soil so that when the seed is sown it will take root, grow, and be sustained. Life, that is salvation is not claimed to be had until the person exercises faith. God does not do the believing for us. The distinction, which isn't necessarily a chronological one, is simply that the Lord must act to overcome the resistance of the sinner in order for them to have eyes to see and ears to hear.

Therefore regeneration and accepting the gospel by faith collectively are referred to as "conversion".

 

It sounds as though he has a combination of Reformed and charismatic ideas that are leading to an emphasis on some sort of second experience.

 

 


Alex Guggenheim said:

Being born again is the same as your conversion.  And it is not an experience though you might recall it by way of an experience.  Being born again occurs when one believes the gospel. 

Of course Calvinism serves up the misnomer that one is regenerated first in order to believe.  This stems from rationalism, not exegesis of the Scriptures. 

Our Lord made clear in the parable of the sower that it is the Word (the seed) that when received gives life, not before.

 KG

The seed is the word of God which is the same seed scattered upon all of the various soils. The difference therefore in the illustration is focused on the soil not the seed. Some of the soil is hard, some good etc. 

I certainly cannot contend that the focus of the parable is the heart.  We must be sure, however, that while the seed is not the hub of the lesson and the heart is, the seed is identified specifically and without exception as the Word of God.  No one is contending this, I know, but the value this reiteration is to aid in receiving all the elements of the parable. Again though, we agree the centrality of the parable is man’s heart.

KG

Regeneration or being born again is related to the condition of the soil. That is that the natural man is hardened against God and His Word being enslaved to sin. (c.f. 1 Cor 2:14, Rom. 8:7, etc.) By born again a Calvinist simply means that God prepares the heart of the sinner to receive the Gospel... i.e. he prepares the soil so that when the seed is sown it will take root, grow, and be sustained. Life, that is salvation is not claimed to be had until the person exercises faith. God does not do the believing for us. The distinction, which isn't necessarily a chronological one, is simply that the Lord must act to overcome the resistance of the sinner in order for them to have eyes to see and ears to hear.

Here we encounter what I earlier referred to as one of Reformed/Calvinism’s bad habits (actually this is found in most any form of Augustinian/Reformed/Calvinistic [ARC] theological rationalism) and that is the redefinition of terms in order to sustain a position.  Here regeneration is being defined as “God prepares the heart”. 

This is both exegetically (grammatically) and theologically not the definition/use of regeneration.  The word itself paliggenesia (Titus 3:5) is a compound word meaning palin-new and genesis-birth and is translated regeneration because we have already been born and made alive so it is a new genesis, a new birth, a new life being brought into existence.  Something is made alive.  This has its synonyms such as (2 Pt. 1:4) the divine nature, (John 1:13) born of God, (2 Cor. 5:17) new creature/creation, (Eph. 2:5) made alive together with Christ and (John 3:3) born anew (from gennaō-born and anōthen-anew from above). This is far beyond mere preparation but it is new birth, being made alive and of course refers to our spiritual rebirth.

And it is exactly what our Lord describes as that which results when one receives the Word of God, they spring up (phuo) to new life.  So as we see in the parable, regeneration is clearly and doubtlessly paralleled by the seed springing up or coming to life.

And most pertinently, one cannot be made alive together with Christ before they have received the Word of God.  This is not just a mild but rather blatant contradiction upon the cause of our being raised to new life together with Christ, because we have received His Word.

It is true that God the Holy Spirit does perform a ministry to the heart of man as it relates to one’s reception of the gospel, but that ministry before man believes is not regeneration but enlightenment. After one believes then the ministry of God the Holy Spirit in regeneration occurs, but not before.

Linda Ruth,

Faith comes by hearing Rom 10:17 (agreed) and YES when it is RECEIVED and falls on good soil it bares fruit but as we can see by the other examples that faith (by hearing) is not always sustained - it is received by some but not always sustained.  Where they truly born again?

 

I believe the answer lies in our Lord’s interpretation.  If you look at what the Lord said he clearly identifies one and only one as not believing and being saved, the first person. I am quite confident that our Lord was not negligent in failing to inform us that others also did not believe and were not saved and instead left it up for us to interpret it as such though He clearly identifies the first person in this manner.  No, I am certain that our Lord made sure we knew which person did not believe and was not saved and did not fail to inform us as to the others.

The 2nd, 3rd and 4th are all treated synonymously as having received the Word and springing up (phuo or as in the 3rd person sumphuo). Their distinction is not whether they were saved or not but to what degree they matured.

Remember, one does not come to life or spiring up from the Word of God yet not really come to life.  If the Word of God, here the gospel of salvation, is received, it brings new life and this is just what occured in the next three persons. If the Lord treated them as receiving the Word of God and coming to life we too must receive this just as it has been told, that they were brought to life from receiving the Word of God, i.e. the gospel.

As we see one of them did not mature even to adolescence and one to early adulthood but his fruit was immature, not ripe with the last to full maturity.  The lesson of the parable from our Lord is indeed the condition of our heart and how it can either cause us to reject even the gospel and not be saved or though our hearts may be soft enough to receive the gospel and be saved, still we must attend to our heart and make sure all of it is both soft and kept pure so we may grow to full maturity and produce such fruit.

Reply to Discussion

RSS

Sponsors

Linkologica

Blog Resources

Arminian Today

Anyabwile

Bock

Called to Communion

Challies

Classical Arminianism

Craig

Christian Answers For The New Age

Christians in Context

Conversation Diary (catholic)

Continuationism.com (marv & scott)

Desiring God blog

DeYoung

First Things

Fr. Stephen (eastern orthodox)

 

Internet Monk

KJV Only Debate (jason s.)

 

Köstenberger

Lisa Robinson - TheoThoughts

Mohler

McKnight

National Catholic Register (catholic)

Parchment & Pen

Pierce

Re-Fundamentals

Resurgence

Roberts

Roger Olson

Taylor

Team Pyro

The Apologist's Pen

Untamed Spirituality

WDTPRS (catholic)

Witherington

 

Theological Resources

BioLogos

Center for Reformed Study and Apologetics

Creeds and Confessions

Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Council of Biblical Manhood and Womenhood (complementarian)

The Center for Bibical Equality (Egalitarian)

Evangelical Theological Society

Monergism.com

Reclaiming the Mind Ministries

Society of Evangelical Arminians

Theopedia

Theological Word of The Day

Tyndale House Bulletin

 

Church History

Early Christian Writings

Glimpes of Church History

 

Christian Traditions

Book of Concord

Catholic.com

Eastern Orthodox

Orthodox Catechism

 

Apologetics

CARM

Lennox

Reasonable Faith

RZIM

Stand to Reason

Tektonics

 

Bible Study

Bible Gateway

Bible Researcher

Blue Letter Bible

Bible.org

IVP New Testament Commentaries Online

 

Online Bible and Theology Education

Biblical Training

The Theology Program

 

Theology and Bible MP3s

Covenant Seminary

263 Theology Questions and Answers

Veritas Forum

 

Theologica Chat Room

MiRC Chat

Badge

Loading…

Get the Widget


Sponsor



Bible Options




© 2014   Created by Michael Patton.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service

/*============================================================================================ /*============================================================================================