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Prompted by other recent discussions...

OK, if confronted by a woman on the platform as speaker or worship leader or whatever, some complementarians would walk out or at least be a bit disturbed, being convinced the woman should not have any kind of teaching or leadership role.

Now, does that carry over to who wrote whatever songs the congregation may sing?  Imagine your (properly male) music director hits those opening chords to "Shout to the Lord," or "Breathe," or for that matter, "Blessed Assurance."  Do you suddenly stop singing, because some woman has overstepped her role by writing songs?  After all, songs are a powerful form of teaching, and the whole congregation is now repeating words written by a woman.  And if it's a contemporary song, repeating them over and over and over again.

In other words, is the objection to the source or to the individual herself?  Is a female worship leader OK if she only does songs by guys?

BTW, to those of you who hold a complementarian view, your error should be obvious, even to you.  After all, the word ends in "arian," one of the worst heresies the church has ever seen.  Whereas the rest of us, holding, as we do,  the egalitaria... uh...wait... the equalitarian um... egalitalogical view ...uh... well, I'll come back to this part once I make up a word that works.  

Tags: Music, women

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FWIW, I've been wrestling with a new term myself since I think complementarian in the true sense of the definition is not quite accurate but I can't make the egalitarian leap.  I'm thinking Complemegarian *hears tada sound*.  And I don't get the anti-worship/song leader stance.  Oh wait, that's right, she can't speak in the presence of men.  Never mind....carry on.
Great question!  I think the same could be asked about books written my women authors?  Are you more likely to pick up a book on suffering by a male author over someone like Joni Erickson Toda or Anne Graham Lots?  At what point is that a genetic fallacy and sexism dressed up as something else?

I don't think it has anything to do with who wrote the material but who is delivering it in a "teaching" capacity.  The issue of books is a good one.  A man can learn to read the Bible by reading Henrietta Mears or Kay Arthur and read commentaries written by women, but he can't learn in a "corporate" setting, like a small group of mutual sharing or  a message delivered in a preaching lab?  I guess the extreme example would be the man who refuses to even listen to a women that expounds on anything having to do with the Bible.  Better to be rude and unloving than to subject your male ears to a woman providing edification from the word, even though she is not governing the church. Is that what Paul intended?  Or better yet, is that what God intended?  I think Daniel's on to something here,

"At what point is that a genetic fallacy and sexism dressed up as something else?"  Scripture can become a convenient cloak in some cases.

Did you mention that ‘Shout to the Lord’ is one of our exports (Darlene Zschech from Hillsong)???

Well, to get up and leave when the song that is sung was written by a woman, who in doing so is vicariously teaching men, would be taking complementarianism to extremes.

Here’s a cynical way to alleviate the guilt of association by participating to singing produced by females:

You don’t have to worry about most of modern ‘choruses’ because their lyrics don’t actually teach much. They are mostly about our warm and fuzzy feelings about Jesus and not much about what He has done for us, but more about what he’s doing in us. You also don’t have to worry much about old hymns as most of them were written by males (ok,  Blessed Assurance excepted)…thereyago problem solved!

Our darling Darlene is also responsible for penning the lines to Worthy is the Lamb, the penultimate line of which refers to Jesus as ‘the darling of heaven’. Now considering that this is the same Jesus that gave John in Patmos a near heart attack because he looked a little...scary, I may be tempted to call ‘darling of heaven’ a vacuous theological statement, but I will refrain from being that harsh. Let’s just say that even if you didn’t know who wrote that song, you could guess that the effeminization of Jesus is most likely a byproduct of a testosterone depleted being.

Seriously though, to walk out because a song was written by a woman is akin to Pharisees refusing to move a chair across the room on a Saturday because it constituted ‘work’.

I would get up and leave because I hate Hillsong music.

John from Down Under said:

Did you mention that ‘Shout to the Lord’ is one of our exports (Darlene Zschech from Hillsong)???

Well, to get up and leave when the song that is sung was written by a woman, who in doing so is vicariously teaching men, would be taking complementarianism to extremes.

I see both men and women alike writing and singing congregational songs under the O.C.  I don't see why that would change today.  After all, Paul himself called for the silence of women in the assemblies that was equal to that in the O.C.  If that's the case then women, can surely lead worship, sing, write, etc. etc.


John from Down Under said:

You don’t have to worry about most of modern ‘choruses’ because their lyrics don’t actually teach much. They are mostly about our warm and fuzzy feelings about Jesus and not much about what He has done for us, but more about what he’s doing in us. You also don’t have to worry much about old hymns as most of them were written by males (ok,  Blessed Assurance excepted)…thereyago problem solved!


Haha! John maybe you're on to something! All these despicable praise choruses we have these days... all the female writers we have these days.....hmmmm... maybe thats the problem! But alas, in the lack of good male leadership....

Now, to address the complementarian who may have issues with it, the responsibility of the leading/teaching would fall on the person who picked the song for that morning. Not the writer of the song. The worship director acts as a filter of what comes before his congregation. No matter who wrote the doctrine, teaching etc. found in the songs it would be the worship director who is responsible for bringing it before or teaching the congregation through it. And if it's a man worship leader, there you go. So there's for that argument. (Oh, and speaking of man worship leaders, here's the best three point argument iv'e heard for them yet [you may want to skip to 1:25]). Same thing with pastors and books. They may read anything written by anybody to further their knowledge or sharpen their doctrinal understanding, but it is still them and them only who are teaching their conclusions to the congregation. 

As for female worship leaders, perhaps they can still be acting under the authority of a worship director. :) If the director is the one in charge and making up the lineup and order of worship and there is a female who just gets up front to lead the song section, how could you go wrong? If you think that would be wrong, then there should be no females in any position on any worship team, singing, playing instruments etc. lest they be "leading" in some form or fashion.

So, in either case posed in the OP, the complementarian needs only to understand his own doctrine a little better and could comfortably participate in the worship (as long as he checked into these things after the service to verify their source of directorship).

:P


Char said:
I would get up and leave because I hate Hillsong music.

John from Down Under said:

Did you mention that ‘Shout to the Lord’ is one of our exports (Darlene Zschech from Hillsong)???

Well, to get up and leave when the song that is sung was written by a woman, who in doing so is vicariously teaching men, would be taking complementarianism to extremes.

Char said:

I would get up and leave because I hate Hillsong music.

 

Ha!  Yeah, I'm not so fond myself.  Their uptempo stuff often strikes me as kind of frantic and on the edge of unsingable, especially for a congregation, but I do like some of their songs.  My Redeemer Lives is good.  And Mighty to Save and Hosanna.   Hear Our Praises.  Hmm, I think most of those are by Reuben Morgan.

I used to do Worthy is the Lamb, but changed some of the words.  I never liked "Crown you now with many crowns" so I changed that.  The "darling" phrase used to bug but I got over it when I viewed it as "dearly loved."

I wonder if some of their lyrics come from figures of speech more common down under or specific to Hillsong church.  I always give our worship leader a hard time about "portioned by faith," a line in Everything that has Breath.  What on earth does that mean?  If you're gonna sing something, you should at least know what it means.

It is my opinion, that having men or women whether in a group or solo, worship leader or not up front on a stage in a church is nothing but entertainment worship and even more so when there are screens involved and you have follow the bouncing ball song.
bouncing ball song?  LOL.  Sorry, I just think that's funny
Cause it is so much easier for everyone to follow something they can't see?  Seriously?  I can understand if someone is being a real showboat about it, but are you seriously suggesting that a choir or orchestra only has a conductor to entertain?

Harry said:
It is my opinion, that having men or women whether in a group or solo, worship leader or not up front on a stage in a church is nothing but entertainment worship and even more so when there are screens involved and you have follow the bouncing ball song.

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