How do you build a "Classroom church" in an Urban area?

[Pastor Andre L. Pickens]

How do you build a "classroom church" in a setting that is not use to deep theological reflection and Bible study? The African American in church is catching up in terms of administration, and church growth technique, but is woefully behind when it comes to  Biblical truth and doctrinal integrity. I see the same Biblical and theological indifference that I saw as a new convert 30 years ago. I am speaking from over 28 years as a pastor, and 15 years in Christian Books retail in the urban community. I met  pastors who thought that the KJV was inspired! Older pastors told me  that I didn't need to learn theology to pastor Black people. African Americans are not interested in theological systems, apologetic s, or Biblical exposition. Accept for a Tony Evans who isn't a product of the black church, there are no large teaching churches in the community. I am not at this point advocating a particular theological stance, although I have one. How do you build a church with a tradition of expository preaching? Where are the Tenth Presbyterian, Grace Community, or First Baptist, Jacksonville, Florida in Urban America? I am looking for honest dialogue and wisdom, not "political correctness"! Please do not be afraid of honesty, I am looking for answers! If you don't know what I am talking about, look at the number of African Americans who are on this site. I once heard Dr. James Montgomery Boice say, "that White evangelicals needed to move back into the inner cities of America and be the "salt and light". That is not my issue. I want to know how I can affect change indigenously!

[Alex Guggenheim]

Thank you Pastor Pickens,

I do think your challenge is not diminished by the realities of cultural issues and theology stemming from that. But I do think if it is properly defined and its causes the remedies can properly be formulated, though it will be a battle and no doubt there will be all kinds of wrong labels those who are afraid or reject it for some reason, will seek to attach to a sound, cognitive approach to a theological and spiritually poised emphasis on teaching. But I am confident when men and women are given real spiritual freedom, real genuine spiritual emancipation from bad theology and find out what it does, they will come back and not just come back a little bit but will be compelled because there is no other substitute.

Pastor Andre L. Pickens said:

Alex, thanks for your last post. I cannot argue with your statements, because they are truth! I guess maybe in my frustration I began to look at this thing from a cultural perspective and failed to see it for what it really is, a spiritual problem. "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ," 2 Corinthians 10:3-5 (NKJV). If I stopped at culture I would be denying the power of the Word of God.

 

[Alex Guggenheim]

No one hammered anything and your language here, reveals a certain prejudice or at least misunderstanding of what I have said. But as a courtesy I will address this point about culture groups who approach the life of faith from different vantages.

I believe this statement precisely represents the problem Pastor Pickens faces and convinces me you understood little of what I said. It does not matter how a culture approaches anything for the believer with regard to spirituality and its contexts.

Once you are born again your human cultural context, though you participate in it or may, becomes anecdotal with regard to your spirituality and its exercises and you are now subject to a new protocol for your life. Your culture is now, or should be, subordinate to the protocol of God. Culture does not dictate to the believer or his or her spiritual life how it will be lived, the Bible does and that certainly include ecclesiastical formulas. And often the Word or God and cultural norms and standards are in conflict and guess who wins on that? The Word of God.

Let me give you an example. Suppose a culture believes that one must sit in a tub of water in order to learn. It is an odd example but one outside of anyone's culture so that it does not appear I am picking on any culture. Now, the Bible makes no such demand and in fact, presents no such necessity.

What do we do, start a tub of water sitting church to accommodate culture? No, we do not make the Christian way of life and particular any spiritual exercise and realities, revolve around culture, but especially when it is ill-founded.

For the Christian, while human culture is not abandoned, it is not a primary element or essential element for spiritual contexts, it is anecdotal, serving the spiritual. What Pastor Pickens faces is just the opposite, the erring over-value of human culture as precentendal and ruling in spiritual constructs.

If you have questions I will answer them but I am, again, interested in interacting with Pastor Pickens, mainly.

joanne guarnieri said:

These are all very distinct culture groups that approach the life of faith from noticeably different vantages.

 

So let's not hammer on someone for noticing.

[joanne guarnieri]

My understanding of these converstaion, Alex, is that we all interact with the question as well as each other.  It's the nature of conversation.  And is, in fact, the way these conversations have, in real life, been conducted for the couple of years I've visited here.

 

You and I disagree entirely in how to deal with people in general, as well, it appears.  In response to your illustration, I would say, by all means, draw a tub of water, it would be the kind thing to do.  To NOT draw a tub of water for these people would be to impose upon them your own interpretation of what a study session must be like.

 

When the apostle Paul gave out the gospel to Jews he was as a Jew.  When he gave out the gospel to the Gentiles, he was as a Gentile with them.  He didn't go into specifics, however, he demanded that Titus not be circumcised (it was a doctirnal issue at that point) and later insisted that Timothy be circumcised (it was a functional issue with Timothy; Paul was addressing cultural concerns in terms of Timothy's credibility among the Jews).  Paul was well aware of cultural differences and he responded to them by working with those people in their culture.

 

As stated before, I feel you have some good points, most notably that the spiritual transcends culture. Nevertheless, culture remains an issue that must be addressed, as Paul did regularly, and by the way, was misunderstood for it.

[Michael L Pryor]

First of all, BSF is great but you would need a group of communities i.e. church in that urban context to invite a BSF and of course your ministry couple look into sponsor said group.  

To be honest, I really don't know, I am a product of the "Apostolic mess or movement, Peter Wagner and the like", the vehicle God use to illuminate the truth of the Doctrines of Grace was christian rap i.e. Flame, Lecrae, and the like.   This opened me to hear names such as John MacArthur, Paul Washer and RC Sproul.  I had heard of them but thought they were boring.  Quiet as kept one thing we love as black people is an emotional experience and i believe that God is using some not allof these christian rap artists to illuminate these truths.  

Also, sometimes utlizing people in history and theologians now that look like the urban audience i.e. Eric Redmond, Anthony Carter, Thabiti Anyabwile, Henry Highland Garnet and the like.  We are sinful creatures who gravitate to people or races we are comfortable with.  I can only imagine the extra burden this must be as a Pastor but in the urban context sometime you freely give somebody, who profess Christ as Lord & Master, a sermon of a white theologian or pastor that doesn't have the "same' sound or style they are used to it gets trashed but if you give them a black reformed minded preacher i.e. Roger Skepple who brings the word with that passion & style that they are used to , they keep it and call you to meet to study the bible.  

I still have to pray through studied and not blocking out the rich wisdom God gave Jonathan Edwards because of the fact he owned slaves.  This is the first time publicly I ever mentioned that face.

[joanne guarnieri]

Your words made my heart swell, Michael, thank you.  Our Lord speaks through His own, and He will draw those who love Him, in whatever "language" they speak (Acts 2).

 

I have longed -- LONGED -- to read a commentary that utilizes story as opposed to dry facts as its main vehicle of communication.  I finally found one, by a Messianic Jew of yesteryear, Alfred Edersheim.  He wrote from a rich culture far more comparable to my own, and there was a deep connection for me.  Thank you Alfred, and thank You, Lord Jesus, for meeting me in my own culture.

 

You're right about BSF, too, by the way.  It's only one good way to study the Bible, there are others.  Since Pastor Andre is responding surely to the prompting of the Spirit, my guess is God is on the move, and and He is ready to work powerfully through whomever is willing to listen to Him, respond and obey.

 

I didn't know that about Jonathan Edwards.  I found out a couple of years ago that one of my ancestors on my mother's side (full of Quakers and Presbyterian pastors) was a pastor who caved in on the slavery issue.  He lived in a southern state, can't remember which one, but I think Virginia, and he was scared.  It's that simple.  So he sided with the slave owners, because he feared for his safety, and his property.  Wish I could cut that branch of my family tree clean off.  I want to think that Jonathan Edwards, when he met Jesus, poured out his repentance and sorrow, and was grateful that the Lord accepted him into heaven.  On the day of judgement, that part of his life will the the sticks and brush that are burned away, the same for my ancestor.

[Alex Guggenheim]

You and I disagree entirely in how to deal with people in general, as well, it appears.  In response to your illustration, I would say, by all means, draw a tub of water, it would be the kind thing to do.  To NOT draw a tub of water for these people would be to impose upon them your own interpretation of what a study session must be like.

Maybe you would like it to be my imposition, but maybe, joanne, it is the imposition of Scripture but this consideration seems to be absent in your view. Because the Bible makes no such requirement and such a superstition to be supported by including it would do just that, mislead and misinform God’s people and produce a deformed practice. End game here. There is no place to include superstitions or anything illegitimate/wrong in a culture in the construct of spiritual contexts simply in the name of sincerity or a wish to accommodate culture. Nadda.

When the apostle Paul gave out the gospel to Jews he was as a Jew.  When he gave out the gospel to the Gentiles, he was as a Gentile with them.  He didn't go into specifics, however, he demanded that Titus not be circumcised (it was a doctirnal issue at that point) and later insisted that Timothy be circumcised (it was a functional issue with Timothy; Paul was addressing cultural concerns in terms of Timothy's credibility among the Jews).  Paul was well aware of cultural differences and he responded to them by working with those people in their culture.

Being aware of cultural differences is not making a church revolve around that culture. Paul didn’t say, “I made the church revolve around that culture or formulated doctrine and practice to accommodate that culture”. He may have, personally, practiced their culture where it was valid but it does not mean (nor did it to Paul) that he would alter his theology. And this is exampled by Paul rebuking Peter for just this reason. The sectarian Jewish believers wanted to “culturally Judaize” the church and its theology. Paul put a stop to it. Your grasp on this distinction appears almost non-existence. 

[Alex Guggenheim]

Q: How do you build a church with a tradition of expository preaching?

A: Be an expository preacher!

Succinct and accurate. Thanks DO