Is Mary ever-virgin?

[Nathan Powell]

I'll start it. Is Mary ever-virgin? Is it important? That seems straightforward enough.

[Jennifer]

start the thread Ryan, I'll move to it. I just hate starting them

Ryan said:

Just trying to help. I'll delete my comments.

[Jennifer]

yes
you could do one for prayers for the departed to if you like

Jande said:

Jen do you want me to start one on the Real presence?
Jennifer said:

start the thread Ryan, I'll move to it. I just hate starting them

Ryan said:

Just trying to help. I'll delete my comments.

[Jennifer]

usually they warn us first

Jande said:

No, don't delete your comments! I was just asking you if the moderator would just warn us first

Ryan said:

Just trying to help. I'll delete my comments.

[Bobby]

The Orthodox don't believe in purgatory but pray for the dead. A Greek Orthodox priest once explained to me that while they don't believe one can cross from Hell to Heaven after death, their lot can be bettered by praying for them, i.e., less suffering in than they would otherwise have suffered or more heavenly bliss than they would have otherwise enjoyed.


Jande said:

Jennifer said you can pray for the departed without believing in Purgatory.

Do you assert that the dead can go from hell to heaven by your prayers? (I don't believe in Limbo, either.)

[Ryan]

While I can't speak for EO, I do know that no one here is arguing anyone can pass from Hell to Heaven. Purgatory is only for heaven-bound souls.

Bobby said:

The Orthodox don't believe in purgatory but pray for the dead. A Greek Orthodox priest once explained to me that while they don't believe one can cross from Hell to Heaven after death, their lot can be bettered by praying for them, i.e., less suffering in than they would otherwise have suffered or more heavenly bliss than they would have otherwise enjoyed.
Jande said:

Jennifer said you can pray for the departed without believing in Purgatory.

Do you assert that the dead can go from hell to heaven by your prayers? (I don't believe in Limbo, either.)

[Ryan]

The beauty is that neither your, nor my, belief makes it so.

Jande said:

Ryan, I think you're a sweet kid...but purgatory does not exist.

[Otsukafan]

Bobby, We don't know exactly what happens after we die. We have a basic idea but we do not know the specifics. What we do know is:

1. The Church has always done it
2. Prayer is powerful
3. God does what He wills and isn't bound by any rules or parameters we would try to place on Him
4. Death is scary and when I go, please pray for me

Bobby said:

The Orthodox don't believe in purgatory but pray for the dead. A Greek Orthodox priest once explained to me that while they don't believe one can cross from Hell to Heaven after death, their lot can be bettered by praying for them, i.e., less suffering in than they would otherwise have suffered or more heavenly bliss than they would have otherwise enjoyed.
Jande said:

Jennifer said you can pray for the departed without believing in Purgatory.

Do you assert that the dead can go from hell to heaven by your prayers? (I don't believe in Limbo, either.)

[Harry]

Amen

Otsukafan said:

Bobby, We don't know exactly what happens after we die. We have a basic idea but we do not know the specifics. What we do know is:

1. The Church has always done it
2. Prayer is powerful
3. God does what He wills and isn't bound by any rules or parameters we would try to place on Him
4. Death is scary and when I go, please pray for me

Bobby said:

The Orthodox don't believe in purgatory but pray for the dead. A Greek Orthodox priest once explained to me that while they don't believe one can cross from Hell to Heaven after death, their lot can be bettered by praying for them, i.e., less suffering in than they would otherwise have suffered or more heavenly bliss than they would have otherwise enjoyed.
Jande said:

Jennifer said you can pray for the departed without believing in Purgatory.

Do you assert that the dead can go from hell to heaven by your prayers? (I don't believe in Limbo, either.)

[Bobby]

Here's some more information from Schaff's History of the Christian Church regarding the historicity of the practice which includes an excerpt from St. Cyprian why no one should fear death:

"The early church differed from the pagan and even from the Jewish notions by a cheerful and hopeful view of death, and by discarding lamentations, rending of clothes, and all signs of extravagant grief. The terrors of the grave were dispelled by the light of the resurrection, and the idea of death was transformed into the idea of a peaceful slumber. No one, says Cyprian, should be made sad by death, since in living is labor and peril, in dying peace and the certainty of resurrection; and he quotes the examples of Enoch who was translated, of Simeon who wished to depart in peace, several passages from Paul, and the assurance of the Lord that he went to the Father to prepare heavenly mansions for us.689 The day of a believer’s death, especially if he were a martyr, was called the day of his heavenly birth. His grave was surrounded with symbols of hope and of victory; anchors, harps, palms, crowns. The primitive Christians always showed a tender care for the dead; under a vivid impression of the unbroken communion of saints and the future resurrection of the body in glory. For Christianity redeems the body as well as the soul, and consecrates it a temple of the Holy Spirit. Hence the Greek and Roman custom of burning the corpse (crematio) was repugnant to Christian feeling and the sacredness of the body.690 Tertullian even declared it a symbol of the fire of hell, and Cyprian regarded it as equivalent to apostasy. In its stead, the church adopted the primitive Jewish usage of burial (inhumatio),691 practiced also by the Egyptians and Babylonians. The bodies of the dead were washed, 692 wrapped in linen cloths,693 sometimes embalmed,694 and then, in the presence of ministers, relatives, and friends, with prayer and singing of psalms, committed as seeds of immortality to the bosom of the earth. Funeral discourses were very common as early as the Nicene period.695 But in the times of persecution the interment was often necessarily performed as hastily and secretly as possible. The death-days of martyrs the church celebrated annually at their graves with oblations, love feasts, and the Lord’s Supper. Families likewise commemorated their departed members in the domestic circle. The current prayers for the dead were originally only thanksgiving for the grace of God manifested to them. But they afterwards passed into intercessions, without any warrant in the teaching of the apostles, and in connection with questionable views in regard to the intermediate state. Tertullian, for instance, in his argument against second marriage, says of the Christian widow, she prays for the soul of her departed husband,696 and brings her annual offering on the day of his departure.

The same feeling of the inseparable communion of saints gave rise to the usage, unknown to the heathens, of consecrated places of common burial.697 For these cemeteries, the Christians, in the times of persecution, when they were mostly poor and enjoyed no corporate rights, selected remote, secret spots, and especially subterranean vaults, called at first crypts, but after the sixth century commonly termed catacombs, or resting-places, which have been discussed in a previous chapter." (http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/2_ch08.htm)

Otsukafan said:

Bobby, We don't know exactly what happens after we die. We have a basic idea but we do not know the specifics. What we do know is:

1. The Church has always done it
2. Prayer is powerful
3. God does what He wills and isn't bound by any rules or parameters we would try to place on Him
4. Death is scary and when I go, please pray for me

Bobby said:

The Orthodox don't believe in purgatory but pray for the dead. A Greek Orthodox priest once explained to me that while they don't believe one can cross from Hell to Heaven after death, their lot can be bettered by praying for them, i.e., less suffering in than they would otherwise have suffered or more heavenly bliss than they would have otherwise enjoyed.
Jande said:

Jennifer said you can pray for the departed without believing in Purgatory.

Do you assert that the dead can go from hell to heaven by your prayers? (I don't believe in Limbo, either.)

[Marc Anthony]

I'm going to respond to the original question.

1. Yes, as a Roman Catholic I believe Mary is still a virgin (she's not dead after all). Basically all early Church Fathers believed this and even the great reformer himself, Martin Luther believed this.

2. The reason this is important is because of an early non-canonical work that has significant parts of it accepted as Sacred Tradition known as the Protoevangelium of James, I believe. I'm going off of memory here but if memory serves me right Mary was consecrated young as a virgin to a Jewish temple. She married Joseph, who was apparently a very old man, so that she'd have somebody to take care of her and watch over her son when He was born. We Catholics believe that Mary would never have broken her Holy vow of virginity, so it is quite honorable that she remains ever virgin.

[JRKH]

With over 200 answers I'm sure all of the theological aspects have been covered. :))
Even as a catholic I struggle with the "Marian dogma's" but this is one that I don't any more - and the reason is simple.
I placed myself in "Joseph's sandals", as it were and asked myself, If I were married to the woman who conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and gave birth to the Living Son of God, would I feel worthy and right about having sexual realtions with this woman??
Joseph knew these things due to the visitations of Angels that told him to take her into his house and later warned him to flee Herod's wrath.
So - Knowing what Joseph knew, I could not see him or any other "rightious" man having sexual relations with the woman who was the "Mother of the Living God".

Peace
James

[Foo Foo Cuddlypoops]

Which brings it right back to the question of the Ascetics, doesn't it?

Why wouldn't a righteous man have sexual relations with his wife? The implication is that an unrighteous man would. By extension, the implication is that sexual relations are a) an effect of the Fall and b) an inherently unrighteous/evil act.

Wasn't this covered already?

JRKH said:

So - Knowing what Joseph knew, I could not see him or any other "rightious" man having sexual relations with the woman who was the "Mother of the Living God". Peace James