Is Mary ever-virgin?

[Nathan Powell]

I'll start it. Is Mary ever-virgin? Is it important? That seems straightforward enough.

[Foo Foo Cuddlypoops]

What he said.

xulon said:

1. No

2. Even if it were true it is unimportant.

[Marv]

Was Mary ever a virgin? Yes. Until she "came together" with her husband, naturally.

Matt. 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

πρὶν ἢ συνελθεῖν αὐτοὺς, The verb συνέρχομαι sunerchomai "to come together" as in 1 Cor 7:5 Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Certainly συνέρχομαι is used generically for assembling together, but intimate relations is the obvious point of Matt. 1:18, else the teaching of the Virgin birth is disabled here.

Then v. 24b-25: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν αὐτὴν ἕως οὗ ἔτεκεν υἱόν.

Yes, this does imply that they did come together after the birth of Christ.

[Marv]

Daniel closed the Mary Mother of God thread...three posts short of 300.

Boo, Daniel.

It was supposed to be a perpetual thread.

[Otsukafan]

Here are a few guys who have also read the bible and held to Mary's ever virginity.

St. Athanasius
St. John Chrysostom
St. Gregory of Nyssa
St. Basil
St. Jerome
St. Ambrose
St. Augustine
St. John of Damascus
Martin Luther
GK Chesterton

I can make a much bigger list but I'm trying to watch the OU game.
Marv said:

Was Mary ever a virgin? Yes. Until she "came together" with her husband, naturally.

Matt. 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

πρὶν ἢ συνελθεῖν αὐτοὺς, The verb συνέρχομαι sunerchomai "to come together" as in 1 Cor 7:5 Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Certainly συνέρχομαι is used generically for assembling together, but intimate relations is the obvious point of Matt. 1:18, else the teaching of the Virgin birth is disabled here.

Then v. 24b-25: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν αὐτὴν ἕως οὗ ἔτεκεν υἱόν.

Yes, this does imply that they did come together after the birth of Christ.

[Otsukafan]

Oh yeah... and the vast majority of present day and historical Christians.

Otsukafan said:

Here are a few guys who have also read the bible and held to Mary's ever virginity.

St. Athanasius
St. John Chrysostom
St. Gregory of Nyssa
St. Basil
St. Jerome
St. Ambrose
St. Augustine
St. John of Damascus
Martin Luther
GK Chesterton

I can make a much bigger list but I'm trying to watch the OU game.
Marv said:

Was Mary ever a virgin? Yes. Until she "came together" with her husband, naturally.

Matt. 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

πρὶν ἢ συνελθεῖν αὐτοὺς, The verb συνέρχομαι sunerchomai "to come together" as in 1 Cor 7:5 Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Certainly συνέρχομαι is used generically for assembling together, but intimate relations is the obvious point of Matt. 1:18, else the teaching of the Virgin birth is disabled here.

Then v. 24b-25: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν αὐτὴν ἕως οὗ ἔτεκεν υἱόν.

Yes, this does imply that they did come together after the birth of Christ.

[Daniel]

Jande said:

Actually the question goes one step deeper. On what authority will you derive your opinion - the word of God or traditions of men? BUT that is off the OP... somehow, though, I think that is where this will end up.

I agree. Ultimately, we believe official church doctrine or not regardless of whether the Bible supports it because if we are a follower of tradition, it tells us how to interpret the Bible. Someone in the prior thread suggested a Biblical case could be made for this though. I'm looking forward to seeing it.

Daniel

[Jennifer]

I think that might be a dark age RC line of thinking but St. John Chrysostom says that if sexual relations between a man and his wife are not at all evil.

Jande said:

well said. If I recall correctly it is said that the perpetual virginity of Mary belief had its earliest beginnings in the thought that spirit was good, flesh or matter was bad. Therefore sexual relations were bad, and Mary could never, ever do "that." Of course this overlooks the fact the all God created was very good (in the right context).

Marv said:

Was Mary ever a virgin? Yes. Until she "came together" with her husband, naturally.

Matt. 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

πρὶν ἢ συνελθεῖν αὐτοὺς, The verb συνέρχομαι sunerchomai "to come together" as in 1 Cor 7:5 Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Certainly συνέρχομαι is used generically for assembling together, but intimate relations is the obvious point of Matt. 1:18, else the teaching of the Virgin birth is disabled here.

Then v. 24b-25: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν αὐτὴν ἕως οὗ ἔτεκεν υἱόν.

Yes, this does imply that they did come together after the birth of Christ.

[Otsukafan]

I'm going to paraphrase St. Jerome when defending the ever virginity of the Blessed Mother of God. He told Helvidius to basically read the Church Fathers and he would be better for it. They put the incarnation, and it's eternal affects, in perspective.

xulon said:

And, Why is this important? Why is it you consider it wrong to think Mary had sex?

Otsukafan said:

Oh yeah... and the vast majority of present day and historical Christians.

[Harry]

Lutheran theologians from Martin Luther down to C.F.W. Walther, the first president of the LC-MS held that the Virgin Mary was ever virgin. Today that view is optional. I take that view.

Otsukafan said:

Here are a few guys who have also read the bible and held to Mary's ever virginity.

St. Athanasius
St. John Chrysostom
St. Gregory of Nyssa
St. Basil
St. Jerome
St. Ambrose
St. Augustine
St. John of Damascus
Martin Luther
GK Chesterton

I can make a much bigger list but I'm trying to watch the OU game.
Marv said:

Was Mary ever a virgin? Yes. Until she "came together" with her husband, naturally.

Matt. 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

πρὶν ἢ συνελθεῖν αὐτοὺς, The verb συνέρχομαι sunerchomai "to come together" as in 1 Cor 7:5 Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Certainly συνέρχομαι is used generically for assembling together, but intimate relations is the obvious point of Matt. 1:18, else the teaching of the Virgin birth is disabled here.

Then v. 24b-25: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν αὐτὴν ἕως οὗ ἔτεκεν υἱόν.

Yes, this does imply that they did come together after the birth of Christ.

[Daniel]

Jande said:

Yeah. That's the second thread I started that he closed. I'm beginning to get a complex.

LOL! Don't get a complex over it. It was nothing personal. When we get that long-winded in a thread, it never crosses my mind who made the initial post. I had actually defended the length of it earlier because it produced some good content. It just seemed that this new topic was kinda taking us in a whole new direction. We try to keep topic on topic as much as we can so that the perpetual archive that is Google reflects accurate topic titles when someone searches on a term (among other reasons).

Daniel

[Jennifer]

1. 1st born is a title that was bestowed on Christ, it does not indicate if a there was ever a second born.
so this term is neutral
2. word until doesn't mean that they had relations after Christ was born.
There are other passages where this word is used where it indicates the opposite

2 Samuel 6:23 “Michal the daughter of Saul had no children until the day of her death.”

This passage is stating that Michal died with no children.

Deuteronomy 34:6 Moses was buried in a valley in the land of Moab …but no one knows his grave until this day.
This passage is stating that no one knows where the grave of Moses is.

Next
Ezekiel 43:1-5, 44: 1-4,
This says to me Mary's womb is the Gate though which the Prince enters and this way is shut and no other shall enter by this way. that is no other human is going to come into the world this way.

Jesus gives his mother over to John as he is hanging on the cross. This is a practical thing to do because it was the way his mother would survive, John became her son and was therefore in charge of her care as she aged. This would not have been needed if she had other children to take care of her, like say if say James had actually been her son.

And there is the Church Tradition that says she is ever virgin, that should not just be dismissed because of a prejudice against what some think is too Roman Catholic.

So in my opinion all signs point to yes Mary is ever virgin.

[Marv]

Thank goodness we have a church father on that one.

Jennifer said:

I think that might be a dark age RC line of thinking but St. John Chrysostom says that if sexual relations between a man and his wife are not at all evil.

Jande said:

well said. If I recall correctly it is said that the perpetual virginity of Mary belief had its earliest beginnings in the thought that spirit was good, flesh or matter was bad. Therefore sexual relations were bad, and Mary could never, ever do "that." Of course this overlooks the fact the all God created was very good (in the right context).

Marv said:

Was Mary ever a virgin? Yes. Until she "came together" with her husband, naturally.

Matt. 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

πρὶν ἢ συνελθεῖν αὐτοὺς, The verb συνέρχομαι sunerchomai "to come together" as in 1 Cor 7:5 Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Certainly συνέρχομαι is used generically for assembling together, but intimate relations is the obvious point of Matt. 1:18, else the teaching of the Virgin birth is disabled here.

Then v. 24b-25: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν αὐτὴν ἕως οὗ ἔτεκεν υἱόν.

Yes, this does imply that they did come together after the birth of Christ.