Jesus refutes the Trinity!

[sticha]

In Mark’s Gospel chap 12, verses 28-34, we read one of the statements, made by Christ himself, which denies the doctrine of the trinity:

And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Here we have a statement by Jesus declaring "God to be One". Not two; not three; but ONE!

Why would He do that?

Because He knows the Scriptures!!

Deuteronomy 6, verses 4-5

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might

Deuteronomy 4 verses 35, 39

Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Isiah 45 verses 5-6

I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.


All the above quotations proclaim in plain, simple language that require people to believe that there is no God worthy of worship except ONE

[xulon]

You highlighted what the scribe said and said it was Jesus talking.

[sticha]

So when the scribe concurs with Jesus that there is but one God he is wrong? Or Jesus is wrong?

A common trick by trinitarians is to say some scriptures are less than others. But only when it comes to those that give them problems defending their doctrine!

And are all the OT verses wrong as well?

[xulon]

You quoted a scribe saying that it's Jesus talking and I'm the one playing with the Scriptures? It's also a common trick to blur the categories. Precision is a threat to some teachings.

[Chad Gibbons]

Hey let me try this bolding text thing. Up next - The Nicene creed refutes the trinity!

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. God of God, light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made.

[Carol Jean]

Sticha,

The conversation with the scribe would have been a perfect time for Jesus to explain the doctrine of the Trinity. Jesus could have corrected the scribe when the scribe used the third person singular pronoun, he, for God.

Another place where Jesus had a great opportunity to teach about the Trinity was with the woman at the well. Jesus tells her that the Jews know who they worship for salvation is of the Jews. "WE KNOW what we worship," John 4:22. The Jews up until this point never worshipped a Trinity. Jesus is giving credence to the knowledge the Jews had of God and he includes himself in that category. It sets the lynch pin of progressive revelation concerning the doctrine of the Trinity down a few notches, imo.
"

[sticha]

sorry if the bold confused you.

But the point is Jesus could have explained the three in one god but did not. Why, if it of such great - some even say our salvation depends on it - importance?

Chad Gibbons said:

Hey let me try this bolding text thing. Up next - The Nicene creed refutes the trinity!

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. God of God, light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made.

[sticha]

Good point.

And if, as some seem to believe, a belief in the trinity is needed for salvation then does that mean that OT people will be not saved? And of so, then does that mean that there are two gospels?

Carol Jean said:

Sticha,

The conversation with the scribe would have been a perfect time for Jesus to explain the doctrine of the Trinity. Jesus could have corrected the scribe when the scribe used the third person singular pronoun, he, for God.

Another place where Jesus had a great opportunity to teach about the Trinity was with the woman at the well. Jesus tells her that the Jews know who they worship for salvation is of the Jews. "WE KNOW what we worship," John 4:22. The Jews up until this point never worshipped a Trinity. Jesus is giving credence to the knowledge the Jews had of God and he includes himself in that category. It sets the lynch pin of progressive revelation concerning the doctrine of the Trinity down a few notches, imo.
"

[xulon]

Isn't it your point that disbelief in the Trinity is needed for Salvation?

sticha said:

some seem to believe, a belief in the trinity is needed for salvation

[Carol Jean]

I thought we were discussing the doctrine of the Trinity and not how it relates to salvation.

God made the Jews witnesses of Himself. It would seem inappropriate for God to do such a thing and then later (with the arrival of the Messiah) make their testimony false if one believes that the arrival of the Messiah brought greater revelation of who God is...ie: a Trinity.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

sticha said:

Good point.

And if, as some seem to believe, a belief in the trinity is needed for salvation then does that mean that OT people will be not saved? And of so, then does that mean that there are two gospels?

Carol Jean said:

Sticha,

The conversation with the scribe would have been a perfect time for Jesus to explain the doctrine of the Trinity. Jesus could have corrected the scribe when the scribe used the third person singular pronoun, he, for God.

Another place where Jesus had a great opportunity to teach about the Trinity was with the woman at the well. Jesus tells her that the Jews know who they worship for salvation is of the Jews. "WE KNOW what we worship," John 4:22. The Jews up until this point never worshipped a Trinity. Jesus is giving credence to the knowledge the Jews had of God and he includes himself in that category. It sets the lynch pin of progressive revelation concerning the doctrine of the Trinity down a few notches, imo.
"

[sticha]

How the tinity relates to salvation is one component to the discussion. If you don't wish to participate in that part then that is fine.

Carol Jean said:

I thought we were discussing the doctrine of the Trinity and not how it relates to salvation.

God made the Jews witnesses of Himself. It would seem inappropriate for God to do such a thing and then later (with the arrival of the Messiah) make their testimony false if one believes that the arrival of the Messiah brought greater revelation of who God is...ie: a Trinity.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

sticha said:

Good point.

And if, as some seem to believe, a belief in the trinity is needed for salvation then does that mean that OT people will be not saved? And of so, then does that mean that there are two gospels?

Carol Jean said:

Sticha,

The conversation with the scribe would have been a perfect time for Jesus to explain the doctrine of the Trinity. Jesus could have corrected the scribe when the scribe used the third person singular pronoun, he, for God.

Another place where Jesus had a great opportunity to teach about the Trinity was with the woman at the well. Jesus tells her that the Jews know who they worship for salvation is of the Jews. "WE KNOW what we worship," John 4:22. The Jews up until this point never worshipped a Trinity. Jesus is giving credence to the knowledge the Jews had of God and he includes himself in that category. It sets the lynch pin of progressive revelation concerning the doctrine of the Trinity down a few notches, imo.
"

[sticha]

No.

xulon said:

Isn't it your point that disbelief in the Trinity is needed for Salvation/

sticha said:

some seem to believe, a belief in the trinity is needed for salvation

[Char]

BWA HAHahah

Oh man. I needed this.

Who else loves the exclamation point tag?? Hahahaha