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Any thoughts on this?  Would you sign a covenant like this to be a member of the church?  Would you submit the kinds of details they demanded? Here is part 1 and part 2 of an in-depth look at how they do things there. The whole thing smacks of abuse to me...

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Raquel,

They way your write above makes it seem like your a sharp tonged female with fire in her eyes.  For some reason (the old nature?) I sit behind this keyboard with just a little hint of a smile on my face.  Unfortunately the matter is too serious to give in to some smart aleck kinds of thoughts.

In my first post, I did not think that enough information was put out there for any reader to make a judgement.  I still think we do not have sufficient information to be sure of what is going on.  I doubt I would be happy unless I could meet Andrew myself face to face.  On the other hand, its not a court of law and it is OK to do some speculation.

From what I read, I had the same gut feeling that you attached some rather dramatic language to...   : ).  Calling this guy a "wolf" was putting it mildly.  My gut feeling was that this guy is a predator by nature.  He is most likely quite intelligent, very social, and is an expert at targeting and grooming females.  He socially sorts through available targets until he finds the right responses.  He probably has plenty of friends and may have a few in high places (Obviously one of his targets was the daughter of an elder.)  It makes me wonder if possibly he aspires to some sort of leadership at some time.  Just as a gut feeling, the whole thing is not over.  This guy will eventually just drift on to another church and do the same thing.  He will eventually get married (and cheat on his wife.)  Yeah, he will do it all again.  Then after a family and about 20 more years he will resurface as leadership somewhere (not Mars Hill).  Chilling, isn't it?

Also, if I can add....  I am not a Driscoll fan.  But I rather have to give some admiration to Driscoll for digging in his heals against sexual sins.  I just wish he would not brag that he can "see things" or make these claims to have some special "discernment."  

Raquel said:

We know what Andrew has said.  Andrew does not appear reputable to me.  At all.  Got a problem with your pastor?  Take it to the media.  Makes perfect sense.  Why should he follow the Bible either??

1. The author of the post(s) is obviously biased making poor Andrew sound like an innocent Bible-belt bumpkin who only made the wee mistake of almost sleeping with a chick WHILE HE WAS ENGAGED to someone else.

2. Important facts are iced over.  Example: "Over the course of that month, Andrew also confessed more of his sexual baggage/history."  So... he was sleeping with his fiance as well and didn't tell anyone until confronted with the issue by leadership and that took almost a whole month for him to choke out?  We have a guy who sleeps around and almost sleeps around with someone else but doesn't tell anyone so that he won't be held accountable.  Why on earth would the leadership over him call him a wolf?  Weird.  I wonder if there's more to this than the innocent bumpkin is telling us.

3. Andrew almost sleeps with random chick, doesn't tell his fiance, runs into her at small group THE FOLLOWING DAY, she notices something is amiss and pesters him until... he "confesses."  I don't call that a confession.  Andrew calls that a confession.  I call that a spineless coward who got cornered. 

4. What is the church's side of the story?

I know of a few other instances where church discipline was been used in that church and I was thoroughly impressed.  They don't let people slide between the cracks, kept pointing them to Christ, ACTUALLY following-up with them rather than just say "no-no" and then ignore the problem.  You can dislike a multitude of things about this church but sticking up for back woods Andrew makes zero sense.

*I just scanned the other thread and am [in a less clear way] re-stating Joanne's thoughts. 

...and here I thought that referring to him as a country bumpkin was funny.  I almost called him a three-toothed-Jim but I thought that was going too far...

I was imagining his attempts at talking the fiancee into sleeping with him, "We're getting married, anyway." 

Could it be that this is more colored by your view of men than by the facts in the case?

Raquel said:

...and here I thought that referring to him as a country bumpkin was funny.  I almost called him a three-toothed-Jim but I thought that was going too far...

I was imagining his attempts at talking the fiancee into sleeping with him, "We're getting married, anyway." 

Hey, I'm new here, but I just have to say that all this discussion is beating around a very legalistic bush. What did Jesus say to the woman caught in the very act of adultery? The Jewish leaders we all ready to stone her. Forgive me if I'm a bit amiss here, but if Jesus had no more problem with it than what he showed, then who are we to judge? Like someone else stated earlier on this thread, the fallen leaders were passing judgement on someone who had fallen. How does that make that person feel, regardless of the extent of his "sin?" Did he repent and the feel compassion and love of his brethren and from his God or contempt and anger? There are guidelines as to what to do. But most churches don't even follow the guidelines as to how to organize their own local congregation. Why should they bother following the rules elsewhere?

I will have to disagree.  The Church has a responsibility to "judge them that are within."

1Co 5:12  For what have I to do with judging them that are without? Do not ye judge them that are within?

Sexual promiscuity is just simply not what we believe is a proper behavior for a Christian.  This is just the tip of the iceberg, there is much more in the NT about the responsibility of the Church to judge its own.

Also, to attach the charge of "legalism" is a misuse of the term.  Christianity is by no means to be equated with anti-nomianism.


Bit Brush said:

Hey, I'm new here, but I just have to say that all this discussion is beating around a very legalistic bush. What did Jesus say to the woman caught in the very act of adultery? The Jewish leaders we all ready to stone her. Forgive me if I'm a bit amiss here, but if Jesus had no more problem with it than what he showed, then who are we to judge? Like someone else stated earlier on this thread, the fallen leaders were passing judgement on someone who had fallen. How does that make that person feel, regardless of the extent of his "sin?" Did he repent and the feel compassion and love of his brethren and from his God or contempt and anger? There are guidelines as to what to do. But most churches don't even follow the guidelines as to how to organize their own local congregation. Why should they bother following the rules elsewhere?

But it is one thing to judge something as wrong...something that wasn't even needed in this case since the person in question recognized that himself and immediately repented...and something quite different for them to lay out massive hurdles that must be met before forgiveness is granted.

Daniel,

It depends upon your definition of "repentance."  I have all along admitted that I do not think we have enough information.  On the other hand, someone truly repentant would not mind having all his "wiggle room" taken away.

Daniel said:

But it is one thing to judge something as wrong...something that wasn't even needed in this case since the person in question recognized that himself and immediately repented...and something quite different for them to lay out massive hurdles that must be met before forgiveness is granted.

So a long list of forced meetings, not allowing him to date ANYONE either inside or outside the church, and some voyeuristic biography of every emotional or physical encounter he'd ever had in his entire life is "wiggle room" that some appointed mentor has the right to demand?  Just where is the NT example of the church doing that kind of thing?

Don Maurer said:

Daniel,

It depends upon your definition of "repentance."  I have all along admitted that I do not think we have enough information.  On the other hand, someone truly repentant would not mind having all his "wiggle room" taken away.

Daniel said:

But it is one thing to judge something as wrong...something that wasn't even needed in this case since the person in question recognized that himself and immediately repented...and something quite different for them to lay out massive hurdles that must be met before forgiveness is granted.

Comical, Daniel.  Really.

Throw a sexist bomb in and kill any valid point that I make.

Wow.



Daniel said:

Could it be that this is more colored by your view of men than by the facts in the case?

Raquel said:

...and here I thought that referring to him as a country bumpkin was funny.  I almost called him a three-toothed-Jim but I thought that was going too far...

I was imagining his attempts at talking the fiancee into sleeping with him, "We're getting married, anyway." 

Hey Bit. 

The best part of the story [to which you are referring] is the effect that Christ had on her AFTER he said "go and sin no more."  She ran to her neighbors and spread the word of just who this amazing man was.  He was the Christ!  He spoke Truth into her life and bam, her life changes in the best of ways. She changes her lifestyle and becomes a believer.

Contrast this with Andrew.  He hears Truth, leaves the church, and goes to the media to slam those who made (what sounds like) multiple attempts to correct his "unrepentance." 

This is why, in my first post on this thread, I asked what was best for Andrew?  Certainly not hattipping his sin.  Discipline, follow through, pointing to Christ, encouraging His walk, and finally restoration.  These are what are good for him.  The Bible is explicit in how we are to help a brother/sister back onto the road.

"15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed[f] in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”



Bit Brush said:

Hey, I'm new here, but I just have to say that all this discussion is beating around a very legalistic bush. What did Jesus say to the woman caught in the very act of adultery? The Jewish leaders we all ready to stone her. Forgive me if I'm a bit amiss here, but if Jesus had no more problem with it than what he showed, then who are we to judge? Like someone else stated earlier on this thread, the fallen leaders were passing judgement on someone who had fallen. How does that make that person feel, regardless of the extent of his "sin?" Did he repent and the feel compassion and love of his brethren and from his God or contempt and anger? There are guidelines as to what to do. But most churches don't even follow the guidelines as to how to organize their own local congregation. Why should they bother following the rules elsewhere?

Daniel,

Interesting.  I notice you words like "long list of forced meetings," the caps in "not allowing him to date ANYONE."  Then you add the emotional terminology "voyeuristic biography of every emotional or physical encounter he'd ever had in his entire life."  Is emotional language like that really the direction you want this conversation to take?

I could be sarcastic and reply with emotional language like this....   That this poor abused habitual life long fornicator who actually had to go to a few meetings.  Imagine!  He was also asked to stop dating (to remove temptation for the time being?), and endure some counseling. Then on top of it all they had the nerve to  inquire of his history of targeting, grooming, manipulating females for their sexual favors.  Certainly he was never involved with pornography and had revealed all of his conquests and was not keeping any information from them.  Without a doubt this upright, honest, fine young habitual fornicator just slipped up once again and would obviously never attempt to repeat his behavior.  Certainly no counseling, or followup would be needed in light of his morally sterling record.

Also, all the emotionalism and finger pointing avoids the real question.  What is real repentance?  I have seen people truly repentant...  I know a former Alcoholics who will not take wine for communion.  Yeah, the pendulum swung too far, but that is repentance!  I think the bottom line is that I think the guy possibly may have a sexual addiction, and you want to let him loose on a Church full of women with no counsel or followup.

There are yet several other issues...   yeah, we all sin, but that should never be an excuse to continue in sin.  God forbid (Romans 6:1ff).

Also, you think an argument that since the NT is silent on this exact situation in the Church that there are no principles in the scriptures that give guidance?  Arguments from silence are weak.

Well, see you elsewhere.  I had better bow out here.



Daniel said:

So a long list of forced meetings, not allowing him to date ANYONE either inside or outside the church, and some voyeuristic biography of every emotional or physical encounter he'd ever had in his entire life is "wiggle room" that some appointed mentor has the right to demand?  Just where is the NT example of the church doing that kind of thing?

Don Maurer said:

Daniel,

It depends upon your definition of "repentance."  I have all along admitted that I do not think we have enough information.  On the other hand, someone truly repentant would not mind having all his "wiggle room" taken away.

Daniel said:

But it is one thing to judge something as wrong...something that wasn't even needed in this case since the person in question recognized that himself and immediately repented...and something quite different for them to lay out massive hurdles that must be met before forgiveness is granted.

Just pointing out that all the bad things you can imagine some guy doing isn't really some reason to slam him.  Instead of imagining this guy as a perv and predator, try pointing out the scriptural justification for the CHURCH's actions when someone has repented already and ISN'T being forgiven but is being judged and shunned.

Raquel said:

Comical, Daniel.  Really.

Throw a sexist bomb in and kill any valid point that I make.

Wow.



Daniel said:

Could it be that this is more colored by your view of men than by the facts in the case?

Raquel said:

...and here I thought that referring to him as a country bumpkin was funny.  I almost called him a three-toothed-Jim but I thought that was going too far...

I was imagining his attempts at talking the fiancee into sleeping with him, "We're getting married, anyway." 

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