Modern Day Prophets

[Jim Zeirke]

At a church that I was once a member we were regularly hearing prophecy from folks who claimed the Gift of the prophetic.  There were even "classes" to train others in this Gift (as if one can earn that Gift.)  I have always had a problem with modern day prophets.  My questions have always been these:

• Does the gift of prophecy, as given in the Bible, even exist today?
• If someone were a true prophet, how would we know it?  Some prophecies in the Bible took decades and some are not yet even fulfilled.  And even the blind squirrel finds a nut on occaision.
• How can we tell if what we are hearing is truly from the Lord?  We are told to judge the prophetic utterance.  But does the Bible give any clue about what criteria we are to use?.
• How much weight should a church give to a prophetic utterance?  My former church's elders still, I understand, study the prophetic utterances of congregants with a zeal that I wish that they had applied to the Bible.  They give equal weight to those prophecies and the Bible. Is this correct?
• Is there a theology of the prophetic utterance?  Are there hard and fast rules of what a proper phophecy should contain?

I always found it interesting that none of these "prophets" in my former church ever attached "Thus sayeth The Lord" to their utterances. 

 

 

[Jim Zeirke]

Sherman wrote:
On the other hand, I tend to operate more in words of knowledge and words of wisdom than the other manifestations of the Spirit. Of course, I understand these gifts a little, well, a lot differently than traditional Charismatic/Pentecostals do. Word of knowledge, to me, is teaching something from the Spirit that you did not previous read or know before you began teaching. And words of wisdom are how to practically apply that teaching in people's lives. I love to teach and thus seek and experience this manifestation of the Spirit and love it when it happens

I've experienced this as well when counseling others or when teaching during a chapel service. (I'm the track chaplain at a local speedway.) I'll be saying something and suddenly a connection in the Scripture will come to mind. Or I'll be preaching along and find myself speaking out a Scriptural truth that I didn't even know was there. Later on--just to be sure--I'll check it out and--sure enough--it's spot-on.

It is delightful and I'm always asking myself "Where the heck did that come from?". Although I know!

[Sherman Nobles]

Apolojedi (Daniel Eaton) said:

Sherman Nobles said:

I too don't see any difference between the OT and NT prophecy except that in the OT such was limited to the prophets, whereas the baptism and manifestations of the Spirit in the NT are for all believers.

Now that is interesting. Just what is the difference between the baptism and manifestations of the Spirit? Do all Christians have this baptism and does it come with all the gifts?

Daniel

Hi Daniel,

I believe that there is a difference between being born of the Spirit and being baptized in the Spirit. It's like the difference between taking a drink of water (gives life) and swimming in a river (moves you). All believers receive the Spirit and are born again when we turn to Jesus in faith. But not all believers manifest the Spirit - though I believe all can.

For example, when Phillip ministered the Gospel to the Samaritans, they received Christ, were saved and even water baptized. But they did not receive the baptism with the Spirit until some time later, possibly months later, when John and Peter came and ministered to them. And in this case they received the gift of the Spirit through the apostles laying hands on them. Luke uses interchangeably the phrases baptism with, filled with, full of, receive, poured out, and coming upon to reference a person being so overwhelmed with the power of the Spirit that they are moved to do something supranatural/unusual like prophecy, tongues, or ecstatic praise. In Acts the most commonly manifestation of the Spirit mentioned is tongues, but such was apparently not always the case. And in Acts, Luke is focused on examples of the baptism with the Spirit (outward manifestation) and speaks little, if any, of being born of the Spirit (inward change).

Of course, some people simultaneously receive both the indwelling of the Spirit (as Paul calls it) and the baptism with the Spirit when they initially have faith in Christ. Cornelius and his household not only were born of the Spirit but were baptized with the Spirit even before they were water baptized, without Peter having laid hands on them, before they were even recognized members of the community of faith.

Being born of the Spirit is an inward work of the Spirit in our hearts - inward change. Being baptized with the Spirit is an outward work of the Spirit through us - outward manifestation. The wording of being "filled with" the Spirit really helps me understand what's going on in our lives. This filling is not so much like a cup being filled with water, as much as it is a sail being filled with wind. We're always surrounded by air, but the wind is not always blowing. And even if the wind is blowing, in order for our ship to move we must hoist our sails and set them to catch the wind. When the wind is blowing and we catch the wind with our sails, we move under the power of the wind! We all have sails, sadly many believers do not even recognize that the wind is blowing and are just buffeted by the waves. And of course, some times the wind's not blowing and all we can do is be still and wait on the Lord, which is apparently what He wants us to do.

If we do not rely upon the wind, I suppose the only thing to do is get out the oars and row. This brings to my mind the image of a Roman slave galley (Ben Hur). And, well, I suppose if we rely upon man's power we have to whip people to get them to do what we think needs to be done.

Well, that's likely much more than you asked for. But that's how I understand (or misunderstand) the baptism with the Spirit.

Blessings,
Sherman

[Sherman Nobles]

ScottL said:

Sherman -

a significant difference between those with a motivational gift of prophecy (Rom.12), a spiritual gift of prophecy (1 Cor.12), and an Ephesisans 4 equipping minster - prophet.

I have heard people try and separate the prophecy in Rom 12 and 1 Cor 12, but I don't believe we have any grounds. Nothing in the text or the use of the Greek suggests such, as I can tell.

I do believe in varying measures though - all can prophesy because indwelt by the Spirit of prophecy, those with prophetic gifts used regularly, and those who are equipper-prophets.

High Scott,

The two lists are radically different, though containing one word that is the same - prophecy.
Rom.12 - prophecy, giving, serving, teaching, encouraging, leadership, compassion.
1 Cor.12 - tongues, word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, interpretation of tongues, discerning of spirits, prophecy.

To me the Rom.12 list seems to be speaking of innate talents that we are physically born with. Some people are just natural teachers, natural leaders, naturally compassionate, naturally giving, naturally prophetic (sees things in black & white), love to serve, and/or love to encourage. These are character traits that we are either stronger or weaker in. It's like they are 7 primary ingredients that are added together at different levels as our make up. My two strongest areas are Teaching/Compassion, the weakest are Giving/Prophecy.

On the other hand, the 1 Cor. 12 list speaks of manifestations of the Spirit, things we can receive and grow in, not necessarily things we are born with. In this list, as noted before, though I've experienced all of them, the most common for me are prophecy, words of knowledge, and words of wisdom.

So though I'm not very "prophetic" in motivational gifting, I am somewhat "gifted" in the prophetic manifestation of the Spirit.

As you noted though, these differences are not explicitly delineated in the two passages. And it's not something that can be proved. I have personally found great help though in understanding my personal giftings, especially the Rom. 12 list, and the strengths and weaknesses of those gifts. It helped me accept myself as God created me, and accept others as God created them. It's also helped me better relate to people who are gifted differently than I am. I found Don and Katie Fortune's book, "Discover Your God-Given Gifts", to be very helpful, encouraging and empowering.

[Sherman Nobles]

Jim Zeirke said:

I've experienced this as well when counseling others or when teaching during a chapel service. (I'm the track chaplain at a local speedway.) I'll be saying something and suddenly a connection in the Scripture will come to mind. Or I'll be preaching along and find myself speaking out a Scriptural truth that I didn't even know was there. Later on--just to be sure--I'll check it out and--sure enough--it's spot-on.

It is delightful and I'm always asking myself "Where the heck did that come from?". Although I know!

Hi Jim, you sound like a "teacher". And as a teacher myself, I understand your desire to see the body of Christ, especially Charismania, give more attention to the study of scripture. And this gift is needed more in Charismatic churches than evern. And I'm glad to see this trend. In fact, I think of myself as a "Charismatic with a brain"! :)

[Scott]

Sherman -

To me the Rom.12 list seems to be speaking of innate talents that we are physically born with. Some people are just natural teachers, natural leaders, naturally compassionate, naturally giving, naturally prophetic (sees things in black & white), love to serve, and/or love to encourage. These are character traits that we are either stronger or weaker in. It's like they are 7 primary ingredients that are added together at different levels as our make up. My two strongest areas are Teaching/Compassion, the weakest are Giving/Prophecy.

This makes for a good categorical teaching, but as you said, you'll find a hard to establishing this from Rom 12 and 1 Cor 12 (or anywhere for that matter).

Suffice it to say that I am not a fan of the more modern, western idea of 'discovering your gifts' or 'unearthing secret, hidden talents'. I don't disagree God creates us as who we are as individuals - personality, talents, etc. But I find that hard with charismata/pneumatika. I don't doubt someone can be a good communicator before being saved. But the Spirit's utilisation of one, in say teaching, after new birth functions quite a lot differently.

So, in the context of Rom 12, we read passages about 'each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned' (vs3) and 'Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us' (vs6) and 'in proportion to our faith' (vs6). These don't seem to be talents, much less motivational talents we discover in us. These are activities of God's Spirit.

[Sherman Nobles]

I see your point Scott and can't argue with your exegesis of the Rom.12 passage, except from the experiential side of things, noting that I see such gifts in people who have no faith in Christ at all. Our faith in Christ does empower us in our natural talents; it empowers us to use our gifts and talents to bless others instead of just for selfish gain or to hurt others. So the faith is not the sourse of the talent but the motivational direction of the use of those talents. Also note that this passage doesn't encourage us to seek to grow or recieve any of the Rom.12 gifts that we don't already have.

The 1 Cor.12 manifestations of the Spirit though tend to not operate in people who do not believe in Christ. Shoot, many believers do not manifest the supernatural power of the Spirit because though the believe in Jesus they do not believe that such manifestations are for today. And notice that Paul encourages us to seek after these gifts, especially to prophecy.

So to me, the two lists are significantly different in essence, purpose, and function - though they both are related to faith and though they both have the word "prophecy" in them. That's how I understand these passages, but I could be wrong. Experience is a colorful but limiting filter for us all.

[Scott]

Sherman -

Again, unfortunately, Rom 12 refers to these as charismata, not 'talents'. As I said, I believe one can be a leader before being born again, and then God rearranging their use of leadership after they come to Christ. But Paul's reference to these in Rom 12 are as charismata and not before someone believes.

Also, there are many that can have prophetic powers and not be born again. This can definitely manifest in wrong spirits, or it can simply be evidenced in a very intuitive person (almost like they function somewhat in words of knowledge). But, Scripture refers to them as charismata and pneumatika.

[Sherman Nobles]

Scott,

Yep, you could be right. Some people do operate in supernatural type stuff though they do not have faith in Christ. But these, I believe, are not manifestations of the Spirit but are often manifestations of evil spirits. Paul does call them gifts, charismata, in both Rom.12 and 1 Cor.12. But pneumatika is only used in 1 Cor. 12, and not in Rom.12. To me, this difference is significant. There are many types of gifts (natural, spiritual, people, offices, etc.), but in 1 Cor. 12 Paul's specifically talking about spiritual (pneumatika) gifts. Rom.12 seems to me to be talking about more natural personality type gifts, not spiritual manifestations.

[Jim Zeirke]

Sherman wrote:
"Shoot, many believers do not manifest the supernatural power of the Spirit because though the believe in Jesus they do not believe that such manifestations are for today. And notice that Paul encourages us to seek after these gifts, especially to prophecy."

I fully agree. They are gifts, not commandments. The main thing is not the gifts, but that we are saved by faith in Christ. We are also brothers and sisters of those straight-laced Baptists who choose not to speak in tongues or prophecy. True, the gifts are supposed to help us lead our lives "behind enemy lines", as a pastor friend of mine puts it. Those that don't use them probably have a harder time of it. But then, I've seen so-called "Spirit led Christians" who are the most paranoid, joyless and unapproachable people that I've ever encountered. When we talk about these things, the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, I think that we need to keep them in perspective as relates to the bigger picture: We are saved from death and promised eternal life with Him who saved us. I think that we also need to remember that these gifts are not the toys seen around a child's Christimas tree. Too many folks that I've known in the charismatic venue, seen to be focused on getting the next big thrill rather than living the life of a Christian. It's probably why you see so many conferences and seminars focused on healing and prophecy but non focused on mercy, giving, and administrations. Benny Hinn preaching on the gift of adminstrations and laying hands on organizations and administrating them would probably not buy him a new Gulfstream 5.

[Jim Zeirke]

Scott wrote: "Suffice it to say that I am not a fan of the more modern, western idea of 'discovering your gifts' or 'unearthing secret, hidden talents'."

Scott, I agree with you on this point except that such programs do seem to help people find out what they are not gifted in. I've seen guys who thought that they had the administrative gift and then see them turn a thriving men's ministry into a total trainwreck. I've seen folks fancy themselves as having a gift to teach who couldn't communicate their name much less teach a biblical concept. My old church did a "discovering your gifts" seminar and it did help clarify things in a practical way. For more than just a few folks they discovered why they have had repeated failures in some areas. For me, it was where I discovered that I had the gifts of mercy and encouragement. That set me on the road to becoming a chaplain.

[Daniel]

Sherman Nobles said:

For example, when Phillip ministered the Gospel to the Samaritans, they received Christ, were saved and even water baptized. But they did not receive the baptism with the Spirit until some time later, possibly months later, when John and Peter came and ministered to them.

I know they had an event which incorporated spiritual gifts when Peter was in town. But how do we know that was the only time or first time they experienced Holy Spirit stuff? Why can't it be a subsequent occurrence? Just because they exercised what I would call "sign gifts" at some point later doesn't mean that they didn't have any of the gifts like "discernment" or "helps" or "exhortation" or whatever prior to that?

Daniel

[Sherman Nobles]

Acts 8:14-17 says that though the Samaritans had received the Gospel, believed on Christ and even been baptized in water, they had not yet "received the Holy Spirit", the Spirit had not yet "come upon" them. This is why I believe that they had not yet experienced the baptism with the Spirit, and did not experience such until Peter and John laid hands on them.

Apolojedi (Daniel Eaton) said:

Sherman Nobles said:

For example, when Phillip ministered the Gospel to the Samaritans, they received Christ, were saved and even water baptized. But they did not receive the baptism with the Spirit until some time later, possibly months later, when John and Peter came and ministered to them.

I know they had an event which incorporated spiritual gifts when Peter was in town. But how do we know that was the only time or first time they experienced Holy Spirit stuff? Why can't it be a subsequent occurrence? Just because they exercised what I would call "sign gifts" at some point later doesn't mean that they didn't have any of the gifts like "discernment" or "helps" or "exhortation" or whatever prior to that?

Daniel