Protecting the innocent with lethal force

[Crazy (JB)]

Ever heard of the "Machine Gun Pastor" Sam Childers? He is most known for using AK-47's to defend and rescue children in Southern Sudan from kidnapping, enslavement, rape, mutilation, burning, and forced military enrollment. 

 

Read an article about him here, or go to his web site here. 

 

 

 

This poses interesting questions as Christians. Just a few may be:

 

1) Is it ok as Christians to use lethal force to protect yourself or your children?

2) Is it ok as Christians to use lethal force to protect others from murder and violent enslavemtn? 

3) Should a church fund or operate such a ministry? 

4) Should firearms be a part of any ministry's budget?

5) {Your question here} ?

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

[JRKH]

1) Is it ok as Christians to use lethal force to protect yourself or your children?

Yes.

2) Is it ok as Christians to use lethal force to protect others from murder and violent enslavement?

Yes to murder, No to enslavement - (my best guess but much might depend on the particulars)

3) Should a church fund or operate such a ministry?

No

4) Should firearms be a part of any ministry's budget?
No

The most a church can do is to lay out, as best it can, the general rules and principles on the use of force.  After that, it must be left to the conscience of the individuals involved as to how certain rules apply or don't. 

The best that we as Christians (who are not in his particular situation) can do is to study our faith, pray and form our consciences to Christ.  Then, should we find ourselves in a similar situation, our decisions will more likely reflect Christ than ourselves. 

 

Peace

James

 

[Sherman Nobles]

1) Yes, absolutely

2) Yes, absolutely

3) Yes, if God inspires them to do so.

4) Yes, if they are needed.  Many large ministries have their own security guards and thus pay for protection.

   Many years ago I grappled with these questions and came to the conviction that not only is it "ok" to use lethal force to protect yourself and others, but it should be the default position to take unless the Lord leads otherwise. If faced with the need to kill someone in order to protect my family or someone else, I'd not hesitate to do so. I'd shoot to kill and then pray for their souls after the battle was over (assuming I'm alive).

   I like the line in the movie First Knight; Sean Connery says "There is peace that only comes on the other side of war!"  Jesus instructed the disciples at one time to not carry a sword, and at another time to buy carry a sword.  So it depends on what God is leading you personally to do in your situation and calling. 

[Daniel]

I think war is moral - or *can* be.  But war isn't a church ministry.  The church doesn't wrestle against flesh and blood.  When God sent the Israelites into battle, I don't think He was sending the Priests and changing the focus of the temple.

[Tim]

1) Is it ok as Christians to use lethal force to protect yourself or your children? Yes

2) Is it ok as Christians to use lethal force to protect others from murder and violent enslavement? Yes to both depending on the cicumstances.  This is not to say that non-lethal force can not be taken, but it depends again on the circumstances.

3) Should a church fund or operate such a ministry? An iffy no. Jesus nor the apostles seemed to have gone anywhere close to this inspite of the fact that many injustices were prevelent in their society in others, both then and throughout all of history.  Again, this is not to say that non-lethal force can not be taken, but it depends again on the circumstances.

4) Should firearms be a part of any ministry's budget? Same as 3.

5) If questions 3 and/or 4 are answered in the affirmative, can I, therefore, kill U.S. politicians, voters and anyone else who would seek to promote such things as obortion, euthanasia and assisted suicide in an effort to protect the weak and innocent from death?

[Kim]

I feel good enough about it that I ordered his book. And after that we'll see...

[Crazy (JB)]

I read the first two chapters last night. It's the first I've heard of something of this sort. Very interesting. 

Kim said:

I feel good enough about it that I ordered his book. And after that we'll see...

[Crazy (JB)]

Tim said:

3) Should a church fund or operate such a ministry? An iffy no. Jesus nor the apostles seemed to have gone anywhere close to this inspite of the fact that many injustices were prevelent in their society in others, both then and throughout all of history.  Again, this is not to say that non-lethal force can not be taken, but it depends again on the circumstances.

I don't know how much weight can be put on that argument. Christ did use (non-lethal) force in driving out the temple merchants. But in the case of Christ, people were looking for a physical savior, a mighty king of war. Perhaps Christ stayed away from such actions for the sake of His ministry and to avoid (more) misunderstanding. I also think that this is an entirely different idea all together. Read some testimonials on his web site. One young girl was gang-raped in front of her siblings and then set on fire with gasoline (once they were finished, of course) because she tried to resist. This kind of thing happens every day, all the time. It raises the ethical question, is it right for a Christian to stand by and watch this from across the street, if they have the ability to stop it, just because Christ never told people to use weapons.

Tim said:

5) If questions 3 and/or 4 are answered in the affirmative, can I, therefore, kill U.S. politicians, voters and anyone else who would seek to promote such things as obortion, euthanasia and assisted suicide in an effort to protect the weak and innocent from death?

No. That would be murder under US law. If the law in the US stated that a fetus was a human and doctors had no rights to kill them, and that you had full permission to "prevent (using lethal force if necessary) the murder of children if you see it happening" that would change the game. Don't you think?
In the case of Sam Childers, the government supports him with guns and troops because he helps them "keep the peace" and protect the citizens from outlaws.

[Daniel]

So if some other church thought that the "Machine Gun Pastor" was doing the devil's work and killing people who were following their conscience or some legal authority, would they be right in sending a hit man to take *him* out? Anyone find irony in the fact that he's fighting against the "Lord's Resistance Army"? Not everything done in the Lord's name is the Lord's work. I also find it kind of ironic that this kind of resistance is brought up the day after we honored someone for their work in peaceful and passive opposition.
BTW, for anyone interested, there is a Wiki article on the guy and his "ministry".

[Crazy (JB)]

1) Ask Southern Sudan and Uganda if they recognize the Lords Resistance Army (also known as the "Rebels") as a governmental authority.

 

2) Ask any Christian if they think someone does not deserve the death penalty, right here in the US of A, for raping a child and setting them on fire when they are done. Is that all ok if that person was only fallowing their own conscience? 

 

3) Yes, but MLK lived in a land that respected the rule of law. Sudan doesn't have the resources to enforce the laws it has or do that much about the LRA rebels who have carried off thirty-five thousand children as sex slaves. 

Apolojedi (Daniel Eaton) said:

So if some other church thought that the "Machine Gun Pastor" was doing the devil's work and killing people who were following their conscience or some legal authority, would they be right in sending a hit man to take *him* out? Anyone find irony in the fact that he's fighting against the "Lord's Resistance Army"? Not everything done in the Lord's name is the Lord's work. I also find it kind of ironic that this kind of resistance is brought up the day after we honored someone for their work in peaceful and passive opposition.
BTW, for anyone interested, there is a Wiki article on the guy and his "ministry".

[Raquel]

I actually paid for this book in hardcover some months ago and regret paying a dime for it.  Never finished it and wouldn't recommend it.  Ever.

 

It's almost cliche' in how eye-for-an-eye that this man's way of thinking is.  Don't like that army where they kidnap/kill people?  Then join my army where we kill the kidnap/killers. 

 

What it is is an incredibly disjointed living out of the faith.  Does anyone here ACTUALLY BELIEVE that the children who were trained to murder can comprehend the moral differentiation that he's imposing on them?  Makes me sick to my stomach just thinking about it.

[Daniel]

I wasn't suggesting that the LRA is a legal authority.  The hypothetical was just that...hypothetical.  What if one church justified something and another did not and both thought armed raids were the answer?  I think the LRA atrocities are pretty clear cut.  But the principle of the appropriate response, if it is valid, should be just as valid in cases where it isn't so clear cut.  One man's kidnapping is another man's rescue.  If I arm myself and go in and "rescue" someone that I think is in a cult, those armed "cult members" might just see it as a kidnapping.  What then?

Crazy (JB) said:

1) Ask Southern Sudan and Uganda if they recognize the Lords Resistance Army (also known as the "Rebels") as a governmental authority.

[Char]

Vocation vocation vocation.

I don't think it's a question of whether this is right, but whether it's appropriate. It isn't part of the vocation of pastor to serve up vigilante justice (which is what is implied by the title "machine gun preacher"). Nor of ostensibly Christian ministry. If someone wants to fight injustice, he may do so within a vocation designated to do that sort of thing (politician, soldier, etc) but that isn't the work of formal ministry. Plus, I don't think the work of God should be tied in that way to something that is clearly "for" one side of a dispute over another.