Protestantism and the early church

[Todd]

Does the theology of the early church Fathers and Medieval church have any bearing or carry any weight in regards to present day Protestant theology? If so, how should a Protestant integrate those teachings into their theological framework?

[Daniel]

What Char said. :)

[Marv]

In re the HS, could be they were just rendering the neuter pronoun as neuter pronoun. A la the KJV:

 

 ¹⁶The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

²⁶Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

 

Maybe liberal Puritans????

 

(This whole HS and masc vs neut pronoun thing is misunderstood)

Damian said:

Side note on translations.  Most of the early Fathers were translated into English by liberal scholars 100, 150 years ago.  Protestant orthodoxy was so busy in America fighting to defend the bible against the onslaught of German liberalism that in many ways, they ceded the Fathers to the liberals.  So Nestorius is no longer an arch-heretic, he's just "muddled in his thinking", misunderstood (of course if you read Nestorius, he's arrogant, condescending, mean-spirited, and seems to take pride in being hard to understand.)  Liberals love heretics.  Makes them feel better about themselves.

 

The liberal influence is subtle.  Example, in many English translations of the Fathers, the Holy Spirit is translated as "it" rather than "He".  Stuff like that.  St. Vladimir's has put out a very good little patristics series. There are about 12 out now.  More coming I hear.

[Otsukafan]

In reading english translations I've found nothing so far that triggers my still sensative fundie alarms. But I do concede liberals scared some conservative evangelicals away by association, but mostly they were discounted due to anti-roman catholic bias.

[Augustus]

I am a Byzantine Catholic.  

 

The Catholic Church is made up of 23 rites, the Roman Rite, is just one albeit the largest rite of the Church.  I dont reject the authority of the pope at all.  The Byzantine RIte is made up of churches that were at one time unified with the Eastern Orthodox Church but for various reasons, mostly political entered into communion with the Bishop of Rome.  Under the provisions of the entrance into communion, the Byzantine Churches were allowed to maintain their liturgical tradition, also the theological expressions of the Christian East, while still accepting the dogmatic pronouncements of the Bishop of Rome.  For example, we do believe that Mary was assumed into heaven at the end of her earthly life, as pronounced by the Bishop of Rome a few decades ago.  We are in agreement on all doctrine, that doesnt mean we agree on how those doctrines are expressed in terms of our theological language.  

Jack said:

Augustus: I made a wrong assumption.You have said that you are a Catholic Christian, of the Byzantine variety.

 Therefore, you are no longer a protestant. I assume that you reject the authority of the Pope. Otherwise, do the majority of your views, line up with the RCC?

Augustus said:

I have read the bible, several times in fact.  And who said I was  RC?  

 

If you are going to refer to Thomas Aquinas as a mere "salesman" for the RC, its pretty clear you  have never read him.

Jack said:

Augustus; Maybe you should have read the Bible, rather than the "salesmen" for the RCC.

Augustus said:

Be careful.   I was a protestant when I signed up for a medieval history class and started reading the works of  St. Augustine,  St. Bonaventure, and St Thomas Aquinas and other medieval theologians and mystics.  

 

I am no longer a protestant.  

[Jack]

You are in communion with the bishop of Rome, accept all his pronouncements, and do not reject His authority, but you are NOT RCC. Hmmmm?

I have a bridge in Brooklyn, that I want to sell, cheap! Interested?

Augustus said:

I am a Byzantine Catholic.  

 

The Catholic Church is made up of 23 rites, the Roman Rite, is just one albeit the largest rite of the Church.  I dont reject the authority of the pope at all.  The Byzantine RIte is made up of churches that were at one time unified with the Eastern Orthodox Church but for various reasons, mostly political entered into communion with the Bishop of Rome.  Under the provisions of the entrance into communion, the Byzantine Churches were allowed to maintain their liturgical tradition, also the theological expressions of the Christian East, while still accepting the dogmatic pronouncements of the Bishop of Rome.  For example, we do believe that Mary was assumed into heaven at the end of her earthly life, as pronounced by the Bishop of Rome a few decades ago.  We are in agreement on all doctrine, that doesnt mean we agree on how those doctrines are expressed in terms of our theological language.  

Jack said:

Augustus: I made a wrong assumption.You have said that you are a Catholic Christian, of the Byzantine variety.

 Therefore, you are no longer a protestant. I assume that you reject the authority of the Pope. Otherwise, do the majority of your views, line up with the RCC?

Augustus said:

I have read the bible, several times in fact.  And who said I was  RC?  

 

If you are going to refer to Thomas Aquinas as a mere "salesman" for the RC, its pretty clear you  have never read him.

Jack said:

Augustus; Maybe you should have read the Bible, rather than the "salesmen" for the RCC.

Augustus said:

Be careful.   I was a protestant when I signed up for a medieval history class and started reading the works of  St. Augustine,  St. Bonaventure, and St Thomas Aquinas and other medieval theologians and mystics.  

 

I am no longer a protestant.  

[Augustus]

"RCC" denotes "Roman Catholic Christian".  

 

I am not a "Roman" Catholic Christian, I am a "Byzantine" Catholic Christian.  Although, my wife is Roman Catholic.  She is Roman, I am Byzantine.... it keeps things spicy.  

 

Not all Catholics are Roman Catholics.  There are Byzantine Catholics, Maronite Catholics, Syriac Catholics, Armenian Catholics.  The Catholic Church is comprised of 23 Rites, The Roman Rite is only one of the Rites.  

 

Educate yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches

Jack said:

You are in communion with the bishop of Rome, accept all his pronouncements, and do not reject His authority, but you are NOT RCC. Hmmmm?

I have a bridge in Brooklyn, that I want to sell, cheap! Interested?

Augustus said:

I am a Byzantine Catholic.  

 

The Catholic Church is made up of 23 rites, the Roman Rite, is just one albeit the largest rite of the Church.  I dont reject the authority of the pope at all.  The Byzantine RIte is made up of churches that were at one time unified with the Eastern Orthodox Church but for various reasons, mostly political entered into communion with the Bishop of Rome.  Under the provisions of the entrance into communion, the Byzantine Churches were allowed to maintain their liturgical tradition, also the theological expressions of the Christian East, while still accepting the dogmatic pronouncements of the Bishop of Rome.  For example, we do believe that Mary was assumed into heaven at the end of her earthly life, as pronounced by the Bishop of Rome a few decades ago.  We are in agreement on all doctrine, that doesnt mean we agree on how those doctrines are expressed in terms of our theological language.  

Jack said:

Augustus: I made a wrong assumption.You have said that you are a Catholic Christian, of the Byzantine variety.

 Therefore, you are no longer a protestant. I assume that you reject the authority of the Pope. Otherwise, do the majority of your views, line up with the RCC?

Augustus said:

I have read the bible, several times in fact.  And who said I was  RC?  

 

If you are going to refer to Thomas Aquinas as a mere "salesman" for the RC, its pretty clear you  have never read him.

Jack said:

Augustus; Maybe you should have read the Bible, rather than the "salesmen" for the RCC.

Augustus said:

Be careful.   I was a protestant when I signed up for a medieval history class and started reading the works of  St. Augustine,  St. Bonaventure, and St Thomas Aquinas and other medieval theologians and mystics.  

 

I am no longer a protestant.  

[Otsukafan]

Jack there are legitimate differences.  One, small children may receive communion if they have been baptized, and in many cases their priest marry.

Jack said:

You are in communion with the bishop of Rome, accept all his pronouncements, and do not reject His authority, but you are NOT RCC. Hmmmm?

I have a bridge in Brooklyn, that I want to sell, cheap! Interested?

Augustus said:

I am a Byzantine Catholic.  

 

The Catholic Church is made up of 23 rites, the Roman Rite, is just one albeit the largest rite of the Church.  I dont reject the authority of the pope at all.  The Byzantine RIte is made up of churches that were at one time unified with the Eastern Orthodox Church but for various reasons, mostly political entered into communion with the Bishop of Rome.  Under the provisions of the entrance into communion, the Byzantine Churches were allowed to maintain their liturgical tradition, also the theological expressions of the Christian East, while still accepting the dogmatic pronouncements of the Bishop of Rome.  For example, we do believe that Mary was assumed into heaven at the end of her earthly life, as pronounced by the Bishop of Rome a few decades ago.  We are in agreement on all doctrine, that doesnt mean we agree on how those doctrines are expressed in terms of our theological language.  

Jack said:

Augustus: I made a wrong assumption.You have said that you are a Catholic Christian, of the Byzantine variety.

 Therefore, you are no longer a protestant. I assume that you reject the authority of the Pope. Otherwise, do the majority of your views, line up with the RCC?

Augustus said:

I have read the bible, several times in fact.  And who said I was  RC?  

 

If you are going to refer to Thomas Aquinas as a mere "salesman" for the RC, its pretty clear you  have never read him.

Jack said:

Augustus; Maybe you should have read the Bible, rather than the "salesmen" for the RCC.

Augustus said:

Be careful.   I was a protestant when I signed up for a medieval history class and started reading the works of  St. Augustine,  St. Bonaventure, and St Thomas Aquinas and other medieval theologians and mystics.  

 

I am no longer a protestant.  

[Todd]

You are one of the few Protestants - assuming you are Protestant, your profile doesn't say - that I know of to read and utilize a book by a Catholic

joan elizabeth mazzu said:

brother lawrence's PRACTISING THE PRESENCE OF GOD was one of the first books other than the bible that brought this methodist (me) closer to GOD.

[Todd]

If that is where it leads, so be it. But I do have some issues with RC doctrine so it would be a long journey.

Augustus said:

Be careful.   I was a protestant when I signed up for a medieval history class and started reading the works of  St. Augustine,  St. Bonaventure, and St Thomas Aquinas and other medieval theologians and mystics.  

 

I am no longer a protestant.  

[Todd]

I think you are right. Most - and I mean the vast majority of Protestants - dismiss, marginalize, or just pay lip service to the ECF and Medieval church. In all my years of being a Protestant I don't think I have heard anything except an occasional bit about the one of the Creeds or something about the formation of the canon. Everything else from that time might as well be basically non-existant.

 

Me, my Bible, and the Holy Spirit is all one needs for doctrine is something I've heard but weren't these guys in the same boat?  Didn't they lead the church by the grace of the Holy Spirit?  Isn't there something to be gained from them?

Otsukafan said:

I think this is an overstatement.  Char, you are familiar and well read in this area, and I must add you have articulate some of the ECF positions very well.  But there are as many folks who post here who don't read them and don't care to.

Char said:

 

We're all pretty familiar with a lot of different writings from church history 

[Char]

The vast majority of Papists and Orthodox dismiss and pay lip service to ancient writers also. The vast majority of people do. That has nothing to do with the historic grounding of the faith and still not really sure what the point is here...

[Char]

Not to defend Marv because I hate him, but his point was that the KJV uses the neuter pronoun "it" so it isn't a liberal invention.

 

And the Puritans read the original languages.

Damian said:

I defer to you on the Greek but... Philip Schaff and Alexander Roberts were Puritans?  19th century German Puritans.  Huh?  Who knew.