Rapture of the Church

[Jande]

I think there have been other discussions on the Rapture, but I do not know if there has been one with my specific question. If there is, just point me to it .
Here's my questions: Most Christians that I know believe in an across the board rapture of anyone who is a Christian. It's almost like getting saved is insurance against tribulation, regardless of how you live afterwards. (Okay, that was the intro to my question).
Do you believe that ALL Christians will be caught away or only those who are faithful Christians? What do you believe the criteria for rapture is? Scripture references, quotes from others, your rationale are all appreciated.
I might only be able to check the site once or twice a week, so be patient if I don't keep up for awhile.

[Damian]

Question: "Most Christians that I know believe in an across the board rapture of anyone who is a Christian... Do you believe that ALL Christians will be caught away or only those who are faithful Christians? What do you believe the criteria for rapture is?"

My answer: Most Christians in the broad Reformed, Lutheran, Anglican/Methodist, Roman Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox, etc, traditions do not believe in an across the board rapture. It's primarily an north American Evangelical doctrine. So being in the reformed Presbyterian camp, I would say no to the concept of the rapture as a whole.

That's not meant to be argumentive mind you... just an answer to your queston :-)

Damian

[xulon]

All believers are raptured. One strong Scripture for this is For God did not destine us for wrath but for gaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:9). The "wrath" in this passage is the Wrath of the Day of the Lord (5:2). The Day of the Lord's Wrath is the Tribulation.

There is a teaching called a "partial rapture" that says only the "watching and ready" will be raptured. Watchman Nee and (I believe) DL Moody taught this.

ETA: By "Tribulation", I mean the Seven Year period called "Daniel's Seventieth Week" which is commonly called "The Tribulation". Nowhere in the Bible is the believer promised to be saved from "tribulation" as in hard times.

[ScottL]

Jande -

From my perspective, maybe similar to Damian's, I see that the rapture and the second/final coming are the same event. So, the whole Bride of Christ will meet Christ as He is headed to make all things new, consummating everything with the new heavens and new earth.

xulon -

Couldn't the reference to the day of the Lord in 1 Thess 5:2 refer to THE day of the Lord, as at the end of the age when God acquits those in Christ and judges those who are not? Does the day of the Lord refer to 7 years here?

[xulon]

No Scott.

The question was about whether, in the view of those who believe in the Rapture, all Christians will be raptured. I, as a believer in the Rapture, gave my answer. Once again, perhaps you can start your own thread.

[ScottL]

xulon -

I'm trying to stay on track here, really. I have stated that I believe the rapture and second coming are the same event. So, in response to the opening question (as Damian also shared), I believe all Christians, the whole Bride, will meet the Bridegroom together at the same time. From my understanding, it's the end of the age and the finishing of all things. So it at least makes sense to me.

But, though I guess my question is valid for discussion (maybe elsewhere) with regards to 1 Thess 5:2, maybe that's where I sidetracked.

[Marv]

Keep xulon away from politics and he usually comes down right..... ;-)

It looks to me as if the pre-trib rapture is there, but it is far from iron-clad in its scriptural support. This would have to rate at best a {C} on a strength of support scale (A-F). However, a partial rapture of only faithful believers would be {F}.

It is true as well that a sizable mass of the church does not hold to a pretrib rapture view. It isn't only North America since I know a number of Europeans with this view...not to mention the apostles....



xulon said:

No Scott.

The question was about whether, in the view of those who believe in the Rapture, all Christians will be raptured. I, as a believer in the Rapture, gave my answer. Once again, perhaps you can start your own thread.

[Damian]

Marv,

I think part of your comment was directed towards what I said. Just for clarity, I never said it was "only" a north American doctrine, but I used the word "primarily". Obviously there are people around the world who hold to the Pre-Trib rapture concept. But it's certainly not as dominate as it is in north America. That's my only point.

:-)

Damian

Marv said:

Keep xulon away from politics and he usually comes down right..... ;-)

It looks to me as if the pre-trib rapture is there, but it is far from iron-clad in its scriptural support. This would have to rate at best a {C} on a strength of support scale (A-F). However, a partial rapture of only faithful believers would be {F}.

It is true as well that a sizable mass of the church does not hold to a pretrib rapture view. It isn't only North America since I know a number of Europeans with this view...not to mention the apostles....



xulon said:

No Scott.

The question was about whether, in the view of those who believe in the Rapture, all Christians will be raptured. I, as a believer in the Rapture, gave my answer. Once again, perhaps you can start your own thread.

[Marv]

Sure, it was quasi-agreement with what you said...carefully disguised I must admit... :-) I take it that "not only" is merely an annotation of your "primarily." (Of course Paul and John never even heard of North America, as far as I know...)

Damian said:

Marv,

I think part of your comment was directed towards what I said. Just for clarity, I never said it was "only" a north American doctrine, but I used the word "primarily". Obviously there are people around the world who hold to the Pre-Trib rapture concept. But it's certainly not as dominate as it is in north America. That's my only point.

:-)

Damian

Marv said:

Keep xulon away from politics and he usually comes down right..... ;-)

It looks to me as if the pre-trib rapture is there, but it is far from iron-clad in its scriptural support. This would have to rate at best a {C} on a strength of support scale (A-F). However, a partial rapture of only faithful believers would be {F}.

It is true as well that a sizable mass of the church does not hold to a pretrib rapture view. It isn't only North America since I know a number of Europeans with this view...not to mention the apostles....



xulon said:

No Scott.

The question was about whether, in the view of those who believe in the Rapture, all Christians will be raptured. I, as a believer in the Rapture, gave my answer. Once again, perhaps you can start your own thread.

[Damian]

You're trying hard with the Apostle bait aren't ya... I'm not biting! Ha! ;-)

Damian

Marv said:

Sure, it was quasi-agreement with what you said...carefully disguised I must admit... :-) I take it that "not only" is merely an annotation of your "primarily." (Of course Paul and John never even heard of North America, as far as I know...)

Damian said:

Marv,

I think part of your comment was directed towards what I said. Just for clarity, I never said it was "only" a north American doctrine, but I used the word "primarily". Obviously there are people around the world who hold to the Pre-Trib rapture concept. But it's certainly not as dominate as it is in north America. That's my only point.

:-)

Damian

Marv said:

Keep xulon away from politics and he usually comes down right..... ;-)

It looks to me as if the pre-trib rapture is there, but it is far from iron-clad in its scriptural support. This would have to rate at best a {C} on a strength of support scale (A-F). However, a partial rapture of only faithful believers would be {F}.

It is true as well that a sizable mass of the church does not hold to a pretrib rapture view. It isn't only North America since I know a number of Europeans with this view...not to mention the apostles....



xulon said:

No Scott.

The question was about whether, in the view of those who believe in the Rapture, all Christians will be raptured. I, as a believer in the Rapture, gave my answer. Once again, perhaps you can start your own thread.

[Marv]

Shoot! And I thought I was being so subtle.

Damian said:

You're trying hard with the Apostle bait aren't ya... I'm not biting! Ha! ;-)

Damian

Marv said:

Sure, it was quasi-agreement with what you said...carefully disguised I must admit... :-) I take it that "not only" is merely an annotation of your "primarily." (Of course Paul and John never even heard of North America, as far as I know...)

Damian said:

Marv,

I think part of your comment was directed towards what I said. Just for clarity, I never said it was "only" a north American doctrine, but I used the word "primarily". Obviously there are people around the world who hold to the Pre-Trib rapture concept. But it's certainly not as dominate as it is in north America. That's my only point.

:-)

Damian

Marv said:

Keep xulon away from politics and he usually comes down right..... ;-)

It looks to me as if the pre-trib rapture is there, but it is far from iron-clad in its scriptural support. This would have to rate at best a {C} on a strength of support scale (A-F). However, a partial rapture of only faithful believers would be {F}.

It is true as well that a sizable mass of the church does not hold to a pretrib rapture view. It isn't only North America since I know a number of Europeans with this view...not to mention the apostles....



xulon said:

No Scott.

The question was about whether, in the view of those who believe in the Rapture, all Christians will be raptured. I, as a believer in the Rapture, gave my answer. Once again, perhaps you can start your own thread.

[Jande]

I have not decided on my belief about partial rapture versus being caught up en masse...but if the Rapture is of the whole church, then why all of the warnings to watch and prepare? I sense such an urgency in Jesus' admonitions, but if we are all raptured regardless of our preparedness, then why the warnings?

[xulon]

The warnings could be because his people are to be eager to do good. Just because there is that encouragement does not mean Jesus really has an unspoken big club in the background. The fact that it is unspoken kinda argues that it is nonexistent. The verse I quoted is important: God has not destined his Church for wrath. Look also at 2 Thessalonians 2 and there the people have been upset by a false teaching that the Wrath had come. The reason they were upset is because they had been taught that they would not be there for the Wrath.

Jande said:

I have not decided on my belief about partial rapture versus being caught up en masse...but if the Rapture is of the whole church, then why all of the warnings to watch and prepare? I sense such an urgency in Jesus' admonitions, but if we are all raptured regardless of our preparedness, then why the warnings?