Rapture of the Church

[Jande]

I think there have been other discussions on the Rapture, but I do not know if there has been one with my specific question. If there is, just point me to it .
Here's my questions: Most Christians that I know believe in an across the board rapture of anyone who is a Christian. It's almost like getting saved is insurance against tribulation, regardless of how you live afterwards. (Okay, that was the intro to my question).
Do you believe that ALL Christians will be caught away or only those who are faithful Christians? What do you believe the criteria for rapture is? Scripture references, quotes from others, your rationale are all appreciated.
I might only be able to check the site once or twice a week, so be patient if I don't keep up for awhile.

[Dallas]

I believe in what is called the Pre-wrath rapture position. Here are some of the scriptural reasons why.

These are the texts that explicitly teach that there will be a rapture or snatching up of believers: Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

All of these represent the rapture as a rapture of all believers and all three of these connect the rapture with the blowing of trumpets. Reading these contextually (esp Matt 24) and comparing scripture with scripture (compare Rev 11:14-16) The rapture will occur after the seventh trumpet and just before the wrath of God falls.(1 Thess 5:9).

[Jande]

JL -

I just read I Thessalonians 4:17. I would have to read (a lot) into the text to come up with what you tell me it says. It states that we will be caught away ἁρπάζω, that we will meet Jesus along with the saints who have preceded us in death, in the clouds νεφέλη. And that (obviously) this all occurs in the air ἀήρ. NONE of this happened when Jerusalem was destroyed. None of it.

JL Vaughn said:

Jande,

There was no "rapture" of Christians either before the start of the Great Tribulation, nor at the "Second Coming."

1 Thess. 4:17 is Paul's claim that the church would be delivered from the destruction of Jerusalem just as the Hebrews were delivered from the destruction of Egypt. (See Exodus 19:4)

Blessings.

[JL Vaughn]

Jande,

Whenever God came "in the clouds" in the Old Testament, did the people actually see God physically sitting among the clouds?

In Exodus 19:4, did the Israelites actually fly through the air on eagles wings?

Paul said he taught nothing but the Law and the Prophets. The Bereans were more noble because they studied the Scriptures to see if what Paul said was true.

The Bereans would have found Exodus 19:4 and all the Old Testament judgment passages and would have known what Paul was talking about, deliverance from persecution and judgment on the persecutors. This happened when Jesus' prophecy, "No stone will be left upon another. They will all be thrown down," was fulfilled, that is when the temple was destroyed in AD 70.

Blessings,
JL Vaughn
Coauthor Beyond Creation Science

[Marv]

Great, Ser. Saved me the trouble...

On rare occasions the Bible means what it says...IMHO.

love4theword said:

or rather than twist the old testament out of context we could look to the New Testament:

Acts 1:7 - 11

7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


JL Vaughn said:

Jande,

Whenever God came "in the clouds" in the Old Testament, did the people actually see God physically sitting among the clouds?

In Exodus 19:4, did the Israelites actually fly through the air on eagles wings?

Paul said he taught nothing but the Law and the Prophets. The Bereans were more noble because they studied the Scriptures to see if what Paul said was true.

The Bereans would have found Exodus 19:4 and all the Old Testament judgment passages and would have known what Paul was talking about, deliverance from persecution and judgment on the persecutors. This happened when Jesus' prophecy, "No stone will be left upon another. They will all be thrown down," was fulfilled, that is when the temple was destroyed in AD 70.

Blessings,
JL Vaughn
Coauthor Beyond Creation Science

[JL Vaughn]

Marv,

I am in awe of your self-professed humility and your Christ-like attitude, er mocking.

Paul told the Corinthians, "We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed." Last I heard, every single person Paul addressed in the Corinthian church died a physical death by AD 160, at the latest. Therefore, either they were all changed before AD 160, or Paul was a false prophet.

In 1 Thess. 1, Paul mentions the severe persecution the Thessalonians were suffering under. At the end of the chapter, he promised that church that it would get worse before they were rescued form it. (See also Acts 17)

In Chapter 2, Paul compares his own sufferings under persecution to theirs. That chapter ends "For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you? Indeed, you are our glory and joy."

In Chapter 3, more talk of the persecution they were under.

In Chapter 4, Paul promises, "According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.... Therefore encourage each other with these words." Some of those Thessalonians, under persecution then, will live to see "the coming of the Lord." They were to encourage each other with those words.

These words were not written to us. They were written to the Thessalonians. If they did not receive relief from their suffering, as Paul promised, then Paul's words were empty.

Ser,

When Jesus said, "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom," who was he promising would not taste death?

When Jesus said, "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation," who was he promising to punish?

When Jesus said, "Do you see all these things? I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down," what was he talking about?

Here are some more verses to consider.

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory."

"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats."

"But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, 'I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!'
Jesus said to him, 'It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.'"

Jesus said who he would come to. He said when he would come. Those people are dead and the time is long past. He said he would come in the same manner God came in judgment in the Old Testament. and that he would gather his people together then separate out his sheep from his goats. That they, those people then, would meet Christ in His judgment.

Blessings.

[joanne guarnieri]

But Seraphim's point was that people did see God literally ride the clouds when the 120 gathered watched the Lord Jesus rise into heaven on a cloud. Direct correlation. All the points you brought up do not address the one point Seraphim was making, and I don't blame you at all, since it's an irrefutable point.

Seraphim may have been alluding to another point, the one you were addressing more broadly, which is that IF there is a direct, literal event of people seeing God in the clouds, then we can extrapolate that into the future hope of a literal meeting with God in the clouds.

Since the angel told the 120 gathered that Jesus would return in exactly the way He had left -- which is to say, Jesus would physically descend on a literal cloud through the atmosphere of earth -- then it is certainly within the perview of orthodox teaching to literally believe Paul's statement about meeting Jesus before His descent as meaning physically ascending through earth's atmosphere to meet the physical Jesus in actual clouds.

Now clearly this all sounds very metaphyscial and paranormal. Agreed. But since God has proven Himself capable of truly bizarre, paranormal events, this seems to fit right in.

JL Vaughn said:

Marv,

I am in awe of your self-professed humility and your Christ-like attitude, er mocking.

Paul told the Corinthians, "We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed." Last I heard, every single person Paul addressed in the Corinthian church died a physical death by AD 160, at the latest. Therefore, either they were all changed before AD 160, or Paul was a false prophet.

In 1 Thess. 1, Paul mentions the severe persecution the Thessalonians were suffering under. At the end of the chapter, he promised that church that it would get worse before they were rescued form it. (See also Acts 17)

In Chapter 2, Paul compares his own sufferings under persecution to theirs. That chapter ends "For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you? Indeed, you are our glory and joy."

In Chapter 3, more talk of the persecution they were under.

In Chapter 4, Paul promises, "According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.... Therefore encourage each other with these words." Some of those Thessalonians, under persecution then, will live to see "the coming of the Lord." They were to encourage each other with those words.

These words were not written to us. They were written to the Thessalonians. If they did not receive relief from their suffering, as Paul promised, then Paul's words were empty.

Ser,

When Jesus said, "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom," who was he promising would not taste death?

When Jesus said, "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation," who was he promising to punish?

When Jesus said, "Do you see all these things? I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down," what was he talking about?

Here are some more verses to consider.

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory."

"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats."

"But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, 'I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!'
Jesus said to him, 'It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.'"

Jesus said who he would come to. He said when he would come. Those people are dead and the time is long past. He said he would come in the same manner God came in judgment in the Old Testament. and that he would gather his people together then separate out his sheep from his goats. That they, those people then, would meet Christ in His judgment.

Blessings.

[Marv]

Oh, JL, why so serious? (Where have I heard that before?) I wasn't mocking, just playfully poking. And, dude, you are the fellow opining that great masses of what the rest of us believe is wrong...

Anyway...

Crikey!!

Paul told the Corinthians, "We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed." Last I heard, every single person Paul addressed in the Corinthian church died a physical death by AD 160, at the latest. Therefore, either they were all changed before AD 160, or Paul was a false prophet.

Obviously this was primarily a reference to the church nursery... No... The only way to make this logic work, JL, is to insist that "we" here refers to the congregation in Corinth + the apostle Paul. I suppose that is theoretically possible. If "we" is, as I think most people reasonably understand it, generally inclusive of the church, then, nothing of the sort is true.

Some of those Thessalonians, under persecution then, will live to see "the coming of the Lord." They were to encourage each other with those words.

These words were not written to us. They were written to the Thessalonians. If they did not receive relief from their suffering, as Paul promised, then Paul's words were empty.
That simply does not follow logically. Paul did not know when Christ would return, and he surely did not know that it would happen during the lifetime of any of his readers, or of himself. He couldn't have made a statement like that unless he meant it in a general sense.

I mean look at his own statement: "we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord" Was Paul still alive at the coming of the Lord?



JL Vaughn said:

Marv,

I am in awe of your self-professed humility and your Christ-like attitude, er mocking.

Paul told the Corinthians, "We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed." Last I heard, every single person Paul addressed in the Corinthian church died a physical death by AD 160, at the latest. Therefore, either they were all changed before AD 160, or Paul was a false prophet.

In 1 Thess. 1, Paul mentions the severe persecution the Thessalonians were suffering under. At the end of the chapter, he promised that church that it would get worse before they were rescued form it. (See also Acts 17)

In Chapter 2, Paul compares his own sufferings under persecution to theirs. That chapter ends "For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you? Indeed, you are our glory and joy."

In Chapter 3, more talk of the persecution they were under.

In Chapter 4, Paul promises, "According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.... Therefore encourage each other with these words." Some of those Thessalonians, under persecution then, will live to see "the coming of the Lord." They were to encourage each other with those words.

These words were not written to us. They were written to the Thessalonians. If they did not receive relief from their suffering, as Paul promised, then Paul's words were empty.

Ser,

When Jesus said, "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom," who was he promising would not taste death?

When Jesus said, "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation," who was he promising to punish?

When Jesus said, "Do you see all these things? I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down," what was he talking about?

Here are some more verses to consider.

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory."

"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats."

"But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, 'I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!'
Jesus said to him, 'It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.'"

Jesus said who he would come to. He said when he would come. Those people are dead and the time is long past. He said he would come in the same manner God came in judgment in the Old Testament. and that he would gather his people together then separate out his sheep from his goats. That they, those people then, would meet Christ in His judgment.

Blessings.

[Jande]

If every single Christian, regardless of their walk with Jesus, regardless if they are back slidden, will be raptured, then why, "Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap." (Luke 21:34) That sounds like a very sober warning.

[Dallas]

In one of my earlier I argued that the rapture happens very late in the divine program. If the rapture occurs this late rather than pre-trib, then it is unlikely that there will be any backslidden Christians. The tribulation will force people to choose to be on fire for God or be His enemies.

I believe that the rapture is of all believers. I do not believe that it is regardless of whether they are backslidden. Sober warnings are given in the knowledge that the elect will heed them and be on guard against slipping.We are neither to make presumptions based on promises of eternal security nor regard the rapture as a reward for good works.

Jande said:

If every single Christian, regardless of their walk with Jesus, regardless if they are back slidden, will be raptured, then why, "Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap." (Luke 21:34) That sounds like a very sober warning.

[joanne guarnieri]

Seraphim, I'm with you all the way (except for the last bit, but that's just a detail concerning the timing of Rapture)

There are all kinds of warnings to Christians to confess and repent often, lest their consciences become hardened; to make their calling and election sure, to move from faith to faith, to now love from the heart and so on. A believer naturally warms to each of these and all the other instructions in Scripture because it is God within, Who has made His home in us, Who has recreated our inward being, Who warms our hearts.

All of us are on the trajectory of sanctification and glorification, Paul teaches this emphatically in Romans 8 (which has a lot of "if/then" clauses, but we are to read those as explanations of the outworking of authentic belief). Where we are on that trajectory may be personally important, and important to those in our lives who are believers and are instructed to admonish, correct, teach and spur us on, and to help us carry our burdens. But the fact that we are on that trajectory is the important part when discussing the Rapture.

[Jande]

So if every Christian - regardless of spiritual condition - will be raptured before tribulation, why:
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mat 24:30 31

[joanne guarnieri]

But...if a pre-trib, or even a mid-trib, rapture is the way it goes down, there will be still those who come to a saving faith during the tribulation time.

Remember that in Egypt, none of the Egyptians (at least as the story seems to imply) were with the Hebrews. All the Egyptians were with Pharaoh except for maybe the two midwives who, it is easily argued, were possibly not Egyptian (but some other culture, or enculturated already by Hebraism through intermarriage).

But as the justice of God rolled down in the form of ever increasingly devastating plagues, more and more of the Egyptians -- including, even, Pharaoh's own sorcerors -- were becoming convinced that Yahweh was for real, and a deity to be contended with. By the last plague, when Pharaoh finally gave the Hebrews the green light to leave, many Egyptians (and others) left with them.

From that we can gather that the increasingly devastating circumstances of the tribulation time will convince many that God is for real, and will turn to Christ for rescue.

Anyway, as in all things, it's a working theory. Since none of this has happened, none of it can be definitively proven

Jande said:

So if every Christian - regardless of spiritual condition - will be raptured before tribulation, why:
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mat 24:30 31