Revelation 6:5-6 The third horseman- the black horse that brings world famine

[Andrew Talley]

Is it possible that the pollinators (honeybees, bumble bees, etc.) are vanishing around the world because the black horse is already riding? In just a few years wind pollinated crops like the four listed in Rev. 6:5-6 will be all the crops we have if the pollinators continue to disappear. (Read my article at http://www.josephsmithauthorbyproxy.com on the bottom of the main page for more info. on the disappearing honey bees/pollinators.)

[Holly]

Scott,

I know your position, but my question was about first century believers. NM. Off topic anyway.






ScottL said:

Holly -

I am not a full preterist, but partial. While I believe we have tasted of the age to come as new creations, I do not believe we have full entered the new heavens and new earth.

Andrew -

We all want to know what the Bible literally means, but we have to get into the culture, history, languages, and context to know what it literally means. Case and example - many can try and teach Ezekiel 1 speaks of UFO's or Jeremiah 10:1-5 speaks of Christmas trees, but in the end, that isn't what it is talking about.

The Jews had particular ways of describing things - very poetically, and very apocalyptically in regards to final things to come. By apocalyptic, I mean that they used a lot of symbols and imagery. So, if Revelation 12:1 speaks of a woman clothed with the sun, we aren't looking for the creation of a synthetic fiber in the 21st century that can capture the sun's rays, as some would speak of. Rather, we want to know what that image meant to first century Jewish Christians, still knowing it can and does speak to us today.

Again, I would encourage you to not pick up the newspaper or read articles to determine what Revelation is talking about. I would encourage you to consider that there is a gap culturally, contextually, linguistically, and historically between us and when the Scriptures were written. Then, begin to study the Word and how a first century Jew would think and let that help in understanding the Scripture. Do know I believe the Scriptures are the Word of God and important to us, but I must guard against reading a 21st century American viewpoint into a first century (or further back) middle-eastern, Jewish culture.

[Andrew Talley]

For what it is worth, I do not read the newspapers. I don't even take them. I have spent hours and hours studying the Bible because I believe it is a message from God. I reject the amillennial view point because it appears to me to be a forced interpretation of the scriptures. Those who have already written off the book of Revelation have a skewed view of the book because they are not looking for answers, after all it's over right? And yet they cannot explain when the heavens were rolled open like a scroll (6:14-16) in history. There are a number of ancient prophecies in the old testament that are yet to be fulfilled- the actual destruction of Bablyon only one of them. Jesus said there is a time of trouble coming such as the world has never seen before nor will ever see again (Matthew 24:21). Common sense points that verse to the book of Revelation as that time of great trouble. It is a shame that so many people refuse to believe the message God gave (1 John 5:10). They all can say they believe the Bible, but it becomes apparent that they don't when so many people can disagree with me and yet disagree with each other too. Everyone believes that which they want to be true instead of believing what is written. I am going to continue to believe what is actually written until God himself shows me different. The end result of the disappearing honey bees will bring world famine IF they keep disappearing like they are. When the insect pollinated crops are gone, people will have to begin eating more of the wind pollinated crops that feed animals like chickens and turkeys etc.. This will have a ripple effect throughtout the world because then the meat group foods will begin diminishing. Without pollination some of the food groups for animals will have no further seed crops for planting each year. Who actually knows how far it will go? God does!!! Are the disappearing honey bees a result of God's judgments coming to pass? Time alone will tell! Believe what you want. The signs of the times are here all around us for those who will open their eyes to see.



John J Travers III said:

The answer is still no.

And I agree with JL on one of his rebuttal points, only one, You seem to be using the Newspapers to interpret scripture.

OH and Ladies with all due respect not being right on the book of Revelation is an important thing. The warning at the end of the book to those who would take away or add to the book of Revelation is a pretty serious warning so it would behoove us to make sure we are correct on the interpretation.
Andrew Talley said:

John, Didn't Jesus give us signs to watch for his coming? Isn't it even remotely possible the disappearing honey bees & other pollinators could lead to the very situation Rev. 6:5-6 predicts when we consider that their disappearance is mysteriously unexplainable? Doesn't it intrigue you that the four food groups listed in Rev. 6:5-6 are all wind pollinated? Do you realize that if the problem isn't corrected very soon (some say a ten year window of which 4 or 5 have already expired) the only crops we will have left will be wind pollinated crops? It looks awfully suspicious to me! Have you read the article on my web page about the disappearing honey bees?

John J Travers III said:

Like JL I have given a lot of thought and study to this and while I differ with him on many points I am in agreement on the answer to your question.

It is absolutely 100% without a shadow of doubt No. Even at face value the events described in Revelation of the horse and riders are not subtle. They are like a hammer hitting a nail.

[Andrew Talley]

John did not write the book because people were being persecuted. he wrote it because Jesus told him to. he may have had no idea he would ever get off the island.

How many theories are there about the book of Revelation? Which one is right? Oh I see, the one you like is right and everybody else's is wrong. Tell that to everybody else in this dialog and they will all try to prove to you that they are the only ones right! The mass of religions proves they are mostly false, and the mass of opinoins does the same. I will stand with a literal interpretation. If the book is a literal representation of what is coming in the near future, we are about to experience nearly hell on earth for those who do not get raptured. I would say the book is a warning for everybody to get into the scriptures and make sure they are saved before it is too late (2 Corinthians 13:5, Matthew 7:22-23). God wrote it the way he did with some mystery involved so people would dig in and study the scriptures. There are dozens of views available that I can choose from and they all differ from each other. Who's is correct? Why is a literal interpretation wrong? It isn't ALL difficult to understand if it is interpreted literally! I think I do understand the majority of it, I just believe it for what it says literally! There will be scorpion/locusts that sting men with their tales and the torment of that sting will last for 5 months and men will seek to die, but God won't let them! (Revelation 9) Literally! You either believe the message or you don't! All the theologing to explain it away is merely proof of unbelief! God said it! That settles it! Call me stupid if you wish, I will not be standing before God trying to explain why I called Him a liar (1 John 5:10)[no fingers intended to be pointed at anybody specific]. Neither will I give up my faith for 10 different exogetical theories about what the scriptures really mean or what event in history looked good enough to paste over this or that verse. they are pretty clear to me! I may be wrong I will admit, but at least I have honestly come to my conclusions by faith, not unbelief.

I believe the central theme of the book is "Repent or else! God will not wait forever!" Andrew

Kathy said:

Char -- yea! We agree!

OK, my two cents worth...not that it is worthy much and I well expect it to be shot down by this group. But that's OK.

I wish we would focus on the central message of Revelation instead of getting bogged down into the speculative nature of the book. The fact is: Revelation teaches us that God is in control. God is Sovereign. He has a plan for the end of all time. This is the central message of Revelation.

John wrote the book to give hope to those being persecuted. God gave him a vision to communicate to the masses at that time....to give hope. They were dying...being persecuted. God gave Him a beautiful message to reassure them that He is in control. It absolutely must be put in historical perspective. Absolutely, it holds significance today. However, I don't believe it was ever John's purpose for us to take every creature, bowl and horse literally. Apocalyptic literature is written this way....in a lyrical way.....to give hope...to disguise its meaning from contemporaries (much as Jesus did through His parables) .....to encourage us to understand that God is on the throne and we will ultimately reign with Him, sitting at His feet in awe...worshipping HIM. It encourages us to persevere through tribulation.

I wonder....all the time spent worrying about horses and creatures and timetables....how much better could that time be spent actually getting to know the God you love and worship? If you trust Him, you won't be possessed with the details of the end times. You will, however, spend more time worshiping Him....honoring Him....trusting Him....learning about HIM in the Word, not focusing all your efforts on theoretical and controversial future events. End times is a distraction that need not be so.

I recently finished a class on Revelation taught by a late 70s woman (reformed pastor's wife). What amazing insight she had! She could draw on all of her years of experience and learning. She is a brilliant and well-educated woman. To see her so succinctly capsulize the central message of Revelation totally rocked my world. I now see it clearly....with no questions....with no desire to knit-pick it apart for my own minds' security and curiousity.

OK - have at it....but I think a balance was needed in this conversation. Yell at me all you want.....you can tell I lean amil. I wasn't always so. Now....it is the only one that makes sense to me. The only real view that has given me perfect peace. BTW - I won't be arguing with you! Somehow I see God shaking His head....thinking to Himself.....can they see ME through all of their wanderings and speculations? Where is their focus, anyway? Just being honest with you.......have fun...

[Scott]

Andrew -

You have stated you don't read the newspapers. But consider that you have read and heard so much about the honey bee phenomenon. Maybe you watched the news, I am not sure. It's not wrong to read or watch - I do this. God wants us to be aware of our world. I was simply encouraging you to not see or read something as if that is exactly what a part of Scripture was speaking of. We always have to start from Scripture, knowing what the writers were communicating by God's Spirit, and then interpret events of our days in accordance with what the Bible is communicating.

Also, you stated - 'I reject the amillennial view point because it appears to me to be a forced interpretation of the scriptures.'

I am not saying whether amillenialism is right or wrong, it's just that another might see you as trying to 'force' your particular interpretation upon the Biblical text.

You then stated - 'They all can say they believe the Bible, but it becomes apparent that they don't when so many people can disagree with me and yet disagree with each other too. Everyone believes that which they want to be true instead of believing what is written. I am going to continue to believe what is actually written until God himself shows me different.'

In the end, it isn't about specifically agreeing with you or another about the interpretation, it is about agreeing with God as He intended to communicate through the writers. We want to have dialogue and listen and consider other's points, for that is important in developing our understanding of Scripture. But, as you stated, 'I am going to continue to believe what is actually written,' that is mine, and all of our, desire as well. We will believe what God has said. But it isn't always a matter of just picking up the Scripture and reading it and then saying, 'This is what it means.' Since we live a few thousand years later, we have got to understand the culture, language, history, and era from back then.

For example, if someone 200 years from now was watching some video recordings of a family. This family had a son that was about to perform in a play. So, right before the son went on stage, the father said, 'Go break a leg, son.' Now, we know what such a phrase means, but 200 years from now, they might not realize it is just a simple saying of, 'Good luck.' Thus, they might get very confused why a father would literally say to his son, 'Go break a leg.' But, if they understood our culture, they would know the father was simply saying, 'Good luck.'

Thus, we have got to get into the understanding of the writers when they wrote. We can't read Ezekiel 1 and think he is speaking of UFO's. We see that it is quite poetic imagery of the throne of God. Or we don't read Jeremiah 10 and think he is speaking of the evils of a Christmas tree. We get into the context and see he was speaking of the evil of false idols. And, Revelation means exactly what it says, but we need to exactly what the imagery meant as John wrote it. The Bible writers always literally mean what they said, we just need to dive into studying what they were literally looking to communicate.

I hope you understand where I am coming from.
Thanks for the interaction.

[Holly]

Just one quick thought...I think it is risky to write off major theological positions the church at held at various points throughout her history as unreasonable or deficient simply because they don't seem to harmonize well with what we "know" now. The more I read about all of them, the more I appreciate their strengths and see them as positive contributions to the Body. I think we are free to keep what is good and strong and discard what is not.

Of course, everyone is free to believe as they choose. I am more than a little troubled, though, by language that seems at times (I'm sure it's unintentional) to denigrate positions that have been held, at certain junctures, by very well-respected scholars and church fathers (including variants of dispensationalism, post-millenialism, amillenialism, etc.) Even preterism - and I'm no preterist! Yet all have strengths, and all have weaknesses.

Could it be that this is what God wants us to see?

[Scott]

Holly (FoA) -

No doubt, most every position has holes, or maybe a better way to state it is that some positions have emphasized some things while negating other things. This, most times, leaves an unbalanced view.

Yet, I also think we have to guard against easily saying, 'Well every view is its holes.' This could lead down the road of too much relativism - we all have something wrong about something, so does it matter on trying to understand anything. I am not saying that is where you are going, I just ponder where the line might be drawn.

Still, knowing we are finite, we don't have all the information on all things theological (or any other area). But, even being finite, I think we can look to grow in knowing things as full as we can, while staying humble in realizing we know not everything.

[Ryan O'Neil]

The problem is war, not the disappearance of pollinators. Famine follows behind the red horse of war, just as Jesus said famine would follow war in (Mt 24:7).

[John williams]

The four horsemen are the same rider through the church ages which brought deception, death, ignorance and a mixture of the three to bring in the anti-christ world ruler, which was riding through the church ages from the apostles to our time, of laodicia, which were withstood by the lion, ox, man, and eagle. Whereby the scripture is fulfilled of Isa 59:19 "When the enemy comes in like a flood, the Spirit of The Lord shall lift up a standard against him."
Christianity has been blinded to the spirit world for so long that they will find themselves in the tribulation period because of missing the rapture of the church. Hope no one would miss it, but it is up to the individual. Depends on what they are following, God and His Word, or man and his theology of the Word.

[Ryan O'Neil]

Ryan O'Neil said:

The problem is war, not the disappearance of pollinators. Famine follows behind the red horse of war, just as Jesus said famine would follow war in (Mt 24:7).

Also, verse six says I heard what seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures. It said, "A ration of wheat costs a day's pay, and three rations of barley cost a day's pay. But do not damage the olive oil or the wine." . That means the crops harvested in late summer (olives and grapes) are not to be devistated like the ones harvested in late spring (wheat and barley). It is a limited so famine does not overrun the entire harvest season. If honeybees were the culprit they would all be harmed.