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I was reading in Luke 14:25-33 today and came to the passages that talked about the cost of disipleship. I had to ask myself...have I realized the cost of being a disciple of Jesus and have I given everything to be His disciple? Is Jesus saying here that there is a cost to us? Is it our life and our possessions? Should we be telling those who we evangelize that there is a cost? Do we a have a choice not be His disciple and still be saved?
We have been given a commission to go and make disciples, but are we just making converts? It seems that becoming a disciple (μαθητής, mathētḗs, “a learner,” from manthánō, “to learn”; Latin discipulus, “a scholar”) is what we are commanded to become and to make. These are hard words to understand...we cannot become His disciples if we do not do certain things. ie, bear our own cross, hate our mother, father, children, our own lives and renounce all that we have.

Tags: Are, converts, disciples?, making, or, we

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It would seem that the words of Luther's " A Mighty Fortress is our God " apply.

A mighty fortress is our God, a trusty shield and weapon;
He helps us free from every need that hath us now overtaken.
The old evil foe now means deadly woe; deep guile and great might
Are his dread arms in fight; on Earth is not his equal.

With might of ours can naught be done, soon were our loss effected;
But for us fights the Valiant One, whom God Himself elected.
Ask ye, who is this? Jesus Christ it is.
Of Sabbath Lord, and there’s none other God;
He holds the field forever.

Though devils all the world should fill, all eager to devour us.
We tremble not, we fear no ill, they shall not overpower us.
This world’s prince may still scowl fierce as he will,
He can harm us none, he’s judged; the deed is done;
One little word can fell him.

The Word they still shall let remain nor any thanks have for it;
He’s by our side upon the plain with His good gifts and Spirit.
And take they our life, goods, fame, child and wife,
Let these all be gone, they yet have nothing won;
The Kingdom ours remaineth.
Xulon, dude I thought you were my mentor!

Gasp!

Seriously, yeah, we try to fight the flesh in fleshly ways. Totally doesn't work. Our sanctification is completed because we are Christ's.
Does this mean no cookies for us again? I want a picture of Xulon's Pheh look.
You need more practice.


Not quite contemptuous enough.
I've been reading "The Reign of the Servant Kings" by Joseph Dillow. It has a lot to say on the distinction between being saved by Christ and being a disciple. To be brief, it tries to keep our justification from getting too mixed up with our sanctification. This is sadly too common of a mistake, and can lead people living the life of works-based salvation.
I do understand what you are saying and I do beleive what you say is true, yet when we read these scriptures how are we to receive them? Let's say we know someone who is a professed Christian and we see they are not taking up their cross, not growing and so forth, but still claim to be saved... do we say yes they are justified freely by His grace through faith in Jesus. There is nothing they need to further do in order to be saved. This person received forgiveness for every sin, past, present and future...but they are living their lives just as they please. What if they claim this justified position and feel there is nothing more they need to do...that everything else is an option? I know people like this who claimed to be very close to God, but ended up divorcing their spouse and marrying someone else. When I confronted her about her decision prior to the divorce, she told me she was forgiven and not to judge her. When I read the scriptures on divorce I know God says not to and if I do it for the wrong reasons I will be committing adultry. If He says I must hate my mother, father, children ( that is choose Him over everyone else) and take up my cross...I will do that. I know if I do not I cannot be His diciple. Many professed Christians hardly open their bibles to see what pleases God... they are just riding the grace train to heaven. Are we not told to work our our salvation with fear and trembling? Do we not have a responsiblity to be a willing vessel as God works in us? In the end I know it is God who has completely saved me and santified me...I will never take any credit for any of it...I am just trying to understand this lack of seriousness by professed Christians for God and His word.
Seraphim Walters said:
These are hard words to understand...we cannot become His disciples if we do not do certain things. ie, bear our own cross, hate our mother, father, children, our own lives and renounce all that we have

we become his disciples thru the gift of salvation.

we are on day one perfectly forgiven, saved, sanctified and seated in the Heavenlies with Christ.

we are not any MORE forgiven, saved, sanctified and seated 10 days or 50 years after our conversion.

Now, we are called to progressively walk out all those things we ALREADY are positionally.

But the church Christ is returning for is not without spot or blemish because we work hard, but because all his gifts are that efficacious.
I will not take that as mean....thanks for being considerate. Yes I see what you are saying from 1 Cor...so that means we just have accept those who claim to be Christians as Christians no matter what they do...other than deny Christ? Even if their life does not reflect that Christ lives in them. Even if it appears they are living in darkness....they just may be a carnal Christian? How about the book of 1 Jn.. everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him, No one who abides in him keeps on sinning, no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil..no one born of God makes a practice of sinning for God abides in him. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and truth. what are we to do with these scriptures that clearly give us discernment about who is of God and who is not.

Seraphim Walters said:
Sherry.

this is what popped into my head reading your response... I do not in any way mean for it to be taken meanly.

'...what is that to you? you follow me.'

Now I will say that most Christians seem content to wait until the starting line becomes the finishing line, and yes, they will answer for how they lived (or didn't live) out there faith. But it's not a question of 'are they Christian?' or 'are they a Disciple' but rather were they good Christians? or good Disciples?

Cause unless I'm reading I Corinthians 3 way wrong...the good the bad and the ugly will be in Paradise with me one day...

And I see alot of the saying of Jesus not as things I should do, but rather as things I cannot do, which reminds me to Cling to the Master.

God's peace on your head.

Seraphim



Sherry Lynn Nolte said:
I do understand what you are saying and I do beleive what you say is true, yet when we read these scriptures how are we to receive them? Let's say we know someone who is a professed Christian and we see they are not taking up their cross, not growing and so forth, but still claim to be saved... do we say yes they are justified freely by His grace through faith in Jesus. There is nothing they need to further do in order to be saved. This person received forgiveness for every sin, past, present and future...but they are living their lives just as they please. What if they claim this justified position and feel there is nothing more they need to do...that everything else is an option? I know people like this who claimed to be very close to God, but ended up divorcing their spouse and marrying someone else. When I confronted her about her decision prior to the divorce, she told me she was forgiven and not to judge her. When I read the scriptures on divorce I know God says not to and if I do it for the wrong reasons I will be committing adultry. If He says I must hate my mother, father, children ( that is choose Him over everyone else) and take up my cross...I will do that. I know if I do not I cannot be His diciple. Many professed Christians hardly open their bibles to see what pleases God... they are just riding the grace train to heaven. Are we not told to work our our salvation with fear and trembling? Do we not have a responsiblity to be a willing vessel as God works in us? In the end I know it is God who has completely saved me and santified me...I will never take any credit for any of it...I am just trying to understand this lack of seriousness by professed Christians for God and His word.
Seraphim Walters said:
These are hard words to understand...we cannot become His disciples if we do not do certain things. ie, bear our own cross, hate our mother, father, children, our own lives and renounce all that we have

we become his disciples thru the gift of salvation.

we are on day one perfectly forgiven, saved, sanctified and seated in the Heavenlies with Christ.

we are not any MORE forgiven, saved, sanctified and seated 10 days or 50 years after our conversion.

Now, we are called to progressively walk out all those things we ALREADY are positionally.

But the church Christ is returning for is not without spot or blemish because we work hard, but because all his gifts are that efficacious.
Just jumped in here. But I see one glaring problem, sister. You say, “we just have accept those who claim to be Christians as Christians no matter what they do.” I see an authority issue here. It is not up to US to decide who is or is not a Christian. It is up to God. You are on very dangerous ground here.

If you are talking about a reception policy of a local assembly (church), then it’s a different story. But I don’t think you are.

Sherry Lynn Nolte said:
I will not take that as mean....thanks for being considerate. Yes I see what you are saying from 1 Cor...so that means we just have accept those who claim to be Christians as Christians no matter what they do...other than deny Christ? Even if their life does not reflect that Christ lives in them. Even if it appears they are living in darkness....they just may be a carnal Christian? How about the book of 1 Jn.. everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him, No one who abides in him keeps on sinning, no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil..no one born of God makes a practice of sinning for God abides in him. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and truth. what are we to do with these scriptures that clearly give us discernment about who is of God and who is not.

Seraphim Walters said:
Sherry.

this is what popped into my head reading your response... I do not in any way mean for it to be taken meanly.

'...what is that to you? you follow me.'

Now I will say that most Christians seem content to wait until the starting line becomes the finishing line, and yes, they will answer for how they lived (or didn't live) out there faith. But it's not a question of 'are they Christian?' or 'are they a Disciple' but rather were they good Christians? or good Disciples?

Cause unless I'm reading I Corinthians 3 way wrong...the good the bad and the ugly will be in Paradise with me one day...

And I see alot of the saying of Jesus not as things I should do, but rather as things I cannot do, which reminds me to Cling to the Master.

God's peace on your head.

Seraphim



Sherry Lynn Nolte said:
I do understand what you are saying and I do beleive what you say is true, yet when we read these scriptures how are we to receive them? Let's say we know someone who is a professed Christian and we see they are not taking up their cross, not growing and so forth, but still claim to be saved... do we say yes they are justified freely by His grace through faith in Jesus. There is nothing they need to further do in order to be saved. This person received forgiveness for every sin, past, present and future...but they are living their lives just as they please. What if they claim this justified position and feel there is nothing more they need to do...that everything else is an option? I know people like this who claimed to be very close to God, but ended up divorcing their spouse and marrying someone else. When I confronted her about her decision prior to the divorce, she told me she was forgiven and not to judge her. When I read the scriptures on divorce I know God says not to and if I do it for the wrong reasons I will be committing adultry. If He says I must hate my mother, father, children ( that is choose Him over everyone else) and take up my cross...I will do that. I know if I do not I cannot be His diciple. Many professed Christians hardly open their bibles to see what pleases God... they are just riding the grace train to heaven. Are we not told to work our our salvation with fear and trembling? Do we not have a responsiblity to be a willing vessel as God works in us? In the end I know it is God who has completely saved me and santified me...I will never take any credit for any of it...I am just trying to understand this lack of seriousness by professed Christians for God and His word.
Seraphim Walters said:
These are hard words to understand...we cannot become His disciples if we do not do certain things. ie, bear our own cross, hate our mother, father, children, our own lives and renounce all that we have

we become his disciples thru the gift of salvation.

we are on day one perfectly forgiven, saved, sanctified and seated in the Heavenlies with Christ.

we are not any MORE forgiven, saved, sanctified and seated 10 days or 50 years after our conversion.

Now, we are called to progressively walk out all those things we ALREADY are positionally.

But the church Christ is returning for is not without spot or blemish because we work hard, but because all his gifts are that efficacious.
I am sorry for the misunderstanding..I am probably not being clear in my thoughts I am in no way deciding who is and who is not, but are we not called to be discerning in all matters of the Kingdom of God? If one is straying from God's word in a big way, and unwilling to hear the truth, yet professes Jesus as their Saviour do we have the obligation to see them as needing to be saved or at least discipled and continue to share the truth with them?

I was just asking this question because of another comment.
we just have accept those who claim to be Christians as Christians no matter what they do.”



James Gibbons said:
Just jumped in here. But I see one glaring problem, sister. You say, “we just have accept those who claim to be Christians as Christians no matter what they do.” I see an authority issue here. It is not up to US to decide who is or is not a Christian. It is up to God. You are on very dangerous ground here.

If you are talking about a reception policy of a local assembly (church), then it’s a different story. But I don’t think you are.

Sherry Lynn Nolte said:
I will not take that as mean....thanks for being considerate. Yes I see what you are saying from 1 Cor...so that means we just have accept those who claim to be Christians as Christians no matter what they do...other than deny Christ? Even if their life does not reflect that Christ lives in them. Even if it appears they are living in darkness....they just may be a carnal Christian? How about the book of 1 Jn.. everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him, No one who abides in him keeps on sinning, no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil..no one born of God makes a practice of sinning for God abides in him. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and truth. what are we to do with these scriptures that clearly give us discernment about who is of God and who is not.

Seraphim Walters said:
Sherry.

this is what popped into my head reading your response... I do not in any way mean for it to be taken meanly.

'...what is that to you? you follow me.'

Now I will say that most Christians seem content to wait until the starting line becomes the finishing line, and yes, they will answer for how they lived (or didn't live) out there faith. But it's not a question of 'are they Christian?' or 'are they a Disciple' but rather were they good Christians? or good Disciples?

Cause unless I'm reading I Corinthians 3 way wrong...the good the bad and the ugly will be in Paradise with me one day...

And I see alot of the saying of Jesus not as things I should do, but rather as things I cannot do, which reminds me to Cling to the Master.

God's peace on your head.

Seraphim



Sherry Lynn Nolte said:
I do understand what you are saying and I do beleive what you say is true, yet when we read these scriptures how are we to receive them? Let's say we know someone who is a professed Christian and we see they are not taking up their cross, not growing and so forth, but still claim to be saved... do we say yes they are justified freely by His grace through faith in Jesus. There is nothing they need to further do in order to be saved. This person received forgiveness for every sin, past, present and future...but they are living their lives just as they please. What if they claim this justified position and feel there is nothing more they need to do...that everything else is an option? I know people like this who claimed to be very close to God, but ended up divorcing their spouse and marrying someone else. When I confronted her about her decision prior to the divorce, she told me she was forgiven and not to judge her. When I read the scriptures on divorce I know God says not to and if I do it for the wrong reasons I will be committing adultry. If He says I must hate my mother, father, children ( that is choose Him over everyone else) and take up my cross...I will do that. I know if I do not I cannot be His diciple. Many professed Christians hardly open their bibles to see what pleases God... they are just riding the grace train to heaven. Are we not told to work our our salvation with fear and trembling? Do we not have a responsiblity to be a willing vessel as God works in us? In the end I know it is God who has completely saved me and santified me...I will never take any credit for any of it...I am just trying to understand this lack of seriousness by professed Christians for God and His word.
Seraphim Walters said:
These are hard words to understand...we cannot become His disciples if we do not do certain things. ie, bear our own cross, hate our mother, father, children, our own lives and renounce all that we have

we become his disciples thru the gift of salvation.

we are on day one perfectly forgiven, saved, sanctified and seated in the Heavenlies with Christ.

we are not any MORE forgiven, saved, sanctified and seated 10 days or 50 years after our conversion.

Now, we are called to progressively walk out all those things we ALREADY are positionally.

But the church Christ is returning for is not without spot or blemish because we work hard, but because all his gifts are that efficacious.
Yes I agree there are those who are total busybodies....looking to find fault with everyone and everything. Their heart is not responding out of love...their motives maybe purely self serving. I used to be like this! I guess I am really not being able to clearly ask the questions on my heart....it is very hard to do through this type of forum. It seems my words and thoughts get twisted somewhat through the words I am writing. Anyway it seems that we cannot answer the question "who is a real believer"? or maybe we should not even ask it.

xulon said:
Sherry Lynn Nolte said:
are we not called to be discerning in all matters of the Kingdom of God? If one is straying from God's word in a big way, and unwilling to hear the truth, yet professes Jesus as their Saviour do we have the obligation to see them as needing to be saved or at least discipled and continue to share the truth with them?
A lot of people ask this in response to the question of why they consider it their responsibility to judge others. Trouble is, seldom are they meddling in things that are problematic in "a big way". Having received agreement that believers in sin can be confronted on it biblically they then take permission to narrow what is a "big" issue down. Soon, issues of biblical freedom and personal preference are charged with getting too close to "big" issues. You may consider me cynical but I've seen too many people who are on the Kingdom's "neighborhood watch" program. Sounds noble and all, but they are mainly busybodies. In the end, those who have corrected me most are those who quietly live wise lives not those who think that they are the elbows in the body of Christ.
I wonder how many times the Bible instructs us to examine ourselves, relative to the times it asks us to examine others. I haven’t done the study, but I think it would be informative to this topic. I am guessing that we are told to examine ourselves dozens of times for every one time we’re asked to examine our brethren. This is key here.

In my own life, it is a life’s work to continuously remove logs from my own eye, to examine my own motives, to take every thought captive…blah, blah, blah. If I get distracted from this work to stick tweezers in other people’s eyes, I fall way behind.

This is not to say that we should not encourage one another in Christ, applying the Word as our common standard. But there is a difference between washing one another’s feet, and lopping them off because they are unacceptable. Just sayin.’
My dude whose picture can stop Rey dead in his tracks said this;

"I will not judge a person to be spiritually dead whom I have judged formerly to have had spiritual life, though I see him at present in a swoon as to all evidences of the spiritual life. And the reason why I will not judge him so is this-because if you judge a person dead, you neglect him, you leave him; but if you judge him in a swoon, though never so dangerous, you use all means for the retrieving of his life. "

Now, is the busybody trying to retrieve life, or make things harder for those in a swoon?

And I see alot of the saying of Jesus not as things I should do, but rather as things I cannot do, which reminds me to Cling to the Master.

Awsum Ser...

You Prot.

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