There Is No Trinity

[Rey Reynoso]

It seems to me that the most ardent supporters of strange positions sometimes push things to the extreme thus resulting in the deletion of their threads (or their accounts).

That being the case I plan to argue their case (even though I am vehemently against it) for the purpose of posterity and to sharpen ourselves.

My position in this thread will be the following:

Scripture doesn't teach the Doctrine of the Trinity--it is merely the systemetizing of verses that can just as easily be used to support a Quinitinity. It makes much more sense to believe what Scripture explicitly states or at least make a connection with what Scripture explicitly states of the following two choices neither of which are the Trinity:
1) Behold the Lord your God is One.
2) This man Jesus has been declared both Christ and Lord God

I will not argue for merely one of the positions but for both. My argument in this thread will be this: the teaching of the Trinity is false and needs careful reformulation and expulsion from our teaching of the nature of God.

Have at you.

disclaimer: I don't believe any of this. Its just that some of my best threads dealing against anti-trinitarians have wound up deleted so I plan to have at least one thread that survives. That being the case I will petition the moderators to carefully watch over our actions in this thread.

[Jason]

Rey,
Just a note.
I'm abandoning this discussion.
I'm tired of wrestling with Robert. It doesn't seem to be helping to sanctify me, as it probably should.
Maybe he and I can get off to another and better start later. Who knows?
I'll be back on the Trinity later. I am researching and writing right now. When I'm done, I'll probably post a link if nothing else.
Have a great Lord's Day.

[Rey Reynoso]

Guys lets stay on this topic.

Jason, God is everywhere so I would expect his spirit, his power, that inward part that is Himself, is also everywhere. Paul also says that no one knows the mind of a man except the spirit of a man yet no one thinks that spirit is a different person apart from a man. It's that powerful, inward, thinking part of the man--I would expect the same with God on a grander scale.

[Jason]

Rey,
I know you responded to something from a little while back.
I'm sure you've read by now that I'm bowing out of this one.
That was a Freudian slip, though, when I typed "Robert" in my message to you.
Anyway, sorry to derail the discussion.

Rey Reynoso said:

Guys lets stay on this topic.

Jason, God is everywhere so I would expect his spirit, his power, that inward part that is Himself, is also everywhere. Paul also says that no one knows the mind of a man except the spirit of a man yet no one thinks that spirit is a different person apart from a man. It's that powerful, inward, thinking part of the man--I would expect the same with God on a grander scale.

[Jack]

Jesus declared that he did and said only that which He saw and heard the Father doing and saying.
The devil was trying to prompt/goad Jesus to do something, anything, not given Him by the father, but manipulated by Satan. Thereby, Jesus would have become the servant of the devil, rather than God, the Father, even tho He would/did not "fall down and worship" the devil.

[Tim Felten]

I'm not sure if this has been stated already and but it should be noted however randomly this fits into the discussion or not (because if it didn't have it before this thread needs it) that, in regards to the verse stating "Behold the Lord our God is one" (Deuteronomy 6:4) that the word for God (Elohim) is plural and the word "one" is what is called a compound unity, lit. ones.

[Apolojedi (Daniel Eaton)]

I have a bit of an unorthodox view of the Trinity myself. I believe that the OT Hebrews understood One God. Christ arrived an suddenly we have two persons of the Godhead. The Spirit was introduced and now there isn't a simply understood "one", but now three. I think we often see the Godhead presented as triune. There are three. While I agree that there three, I'm open to there being at least three. I don't see anywhere that says ONLY three. Passages that talk about God being among the gods and such leave me with more questions than concrete answers. When we get to eternity and realize that we don't have it all perfectly figured out and didn't have all the information, I won't be surprised at all. The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know.

Daniel

[Derek]

@Apolo: What do you think of the seven Spirits of Revelation 1?

[Apolojedi (Daniel Eaton)]

Derek said:

@Apolo: What do you think of the seven Spirits of Revelation 1?

You talking about the "messengers" or "angels" of the seven churches? I think they were the pastors.

Daniel

[Marv]

Rev 5:6 (and others)

And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Apolojedi (Daniel Eaton) said:

Derek said:

@Apolo: What do you think of the seven Spirits of Revelation 1?

You talking about the "messengers" or "angels" of the seven churches? I think they were the pastors.

Daniel

[joan elizabeth mazzu]

How about - - - Philippians passage where writer is praising Jesus for His obedience to God the Father, although Jesus was the same substance as the Father.
How about - - - the Genesis passages where God refers to himself (themselves) as "us". One passage is where God creates man, male and female He created them.(male and female indicating more than one man) The other is where mankind working in concert was building a tower and God stated that that kind of cooperation among mankind without God at the head is disaster waiting to happen. (well, I filled in some of the reasoning.)
How about - - - In JOHN where Jesus says drink my blood of the new covenant or you are not part of me.
those passages are weird and have to be accepted on faith by believers. But I don't think Jesus would have asked people to drink his physical human blood, even if symbolically, because of the strong prohibition against consuming the blood of animals even a sacrificial lamb. This leads me to think that Jesus was there saying take me as sacrificial lamb AND as non-physical, spiritual, divine being.
And about the Holy spirit? Hallelujah to the Holy Spirit. He is so humble that he will not even say anything of His own- only remind of God's and Jesus' word.
I see these three as holy example for us to act in society/ hierarchy Loving hierachy.

[John Roberts]

The number seven represents completeness or perfection. The Lamb is Jesus. Horns represent powers or kings. Having seven horns would represent Jesus as king of kings. Eyes are for seeing, seven eyes would be to see all or perfectly. Those seven eyes of Jesus are called the seven Spirits of God, thus it represents the total of Spirits or immortal beings (saints) sent forth into the earth to judge the world and to execute judgments under the supervision of Christ who will direct their movements, even as his works are directed by his Father.

Marv said:

Rev 5:6 (and others)

And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Apolojedi (Daniel Eaton) said:

Derek said:

@Apolo: What do you think of the seven Spirits of Revelation 1?

You talking about the "messengers" or "angels" of the seven churches? I think they were the pastors.

Daniel

[robert brown]

I. There is but one only,[1] living, and true God,[2] who is infinite in being and perfection,[3] a most pure spirit,[4] invisible,[5] without body, parts,[6] or passions;[7] immutable,[8] immense,[9] eternal,[10] incomprehensible,[11] almighty,[12] most wise,[13] most holy,[14] most free,[15] most absolute;[16] working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will,[17] for His own glory;[18] most loving,[19] gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin;[20] the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him;[21] and withal, most just, and terrible in His judgments,[22] hating all sin,[23] and who will by no means clear the guilty.[24]

II. God has all life,[25] glory,[26] goodness,[27] blessedness,[28] in and of Himself; and is alone in and unto Himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which He has made,[29] nor deriving any glory from them,[30] but only manifesting His own glory in, by, unto, and upon them. He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things;[31] and has most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them whatsoever Himself pleases.[32] In His sight all things are open and manifest,[33] His knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature,[34] so as nothing is to Him contingent, or uncertain.[35] He is most holy in all His counsels, in all His works, and in all His commands.[36] To Him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience He is pleased to require of them.[37]

III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.[38] The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; [39] the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son. [40]
- scripture proof-
[1] DEU 6:4 Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord. 1CO 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God by one. 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

[2] 1TH 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols, to serve the living and true God. JER 10:10 But the Lord is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting King.

[3] JOB 11:7 Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? 8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know? 9 The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea. 26:14 Lo, these are parts of his ways; but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?

[4] JOH 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

[5] 1TI 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

[6] DEU 4:15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: 16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female. JOH 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. LUK 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

[7] ACT 14:11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. 15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein.

[8] JAM 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. MAL 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

[9] 1KI 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? JER 23:23 Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? 24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.

[10] PSA 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. 1TI 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

[11] PSA 145:3 Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable.

[12] GEN 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. REV 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

[13] ROM 16:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

[14] ISA 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. REV 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

[15] PSA 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

[16] EXO 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

[17] EPH 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

[18] PRO 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. ROM 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

[19] 1JO 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

[20] EXO 34:6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

[21] HEB 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

[22] NEH 9:32 Now therefore, our God, the great, the mighty, and the terrible God, who keepest covenant and mercy, let not all the trouble seem little before thee, that hath come upon us, on our kings, on our princes, and on our priests, and on our prophets, and on our fathers, and on all thy people, since the time of the kings of Assyria unto this day. 33 Howbeit thou art just in all that is brought upon us; for thou hast done right, but we have done wickedly.

[23] PSA 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. 6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

[24] NAH 1:2 God is jealous, and the Lord revengeth; the Lord revengeth, and is furious; the Lord will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies. 3 The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the Lord hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. EXO 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

[25] JOH 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself.

[26] ACT 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran.

[27] PSA 119:68 Thou art good, and doest good; teach me thy statutes.

[28] 1TI 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords. ROM 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

[29] ACT 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things.

[30] JOB 22:2 Can a man be profitable unto God, as he that is wise may be profitable unto himself? 3 Is it any pleasure to the Almighty, that thou art righteous? or is it gain to him that thou makest thy ways perfect?

[31] ROM 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

[32] REV 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. 1TI 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords. DAN 4:25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. 35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

[33] HEB 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

[34] ROM 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? PSA 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.

[35] ACT 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. EZE 11:5 And the Spirit of the Lord fell upon me, and said unto me, Speak; Thus saith the Lord; Thus have ye said, O house of Israel: for I know the things that come into your mind, every one of them.

[36] PSA 145:17 The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works. ROM 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

[37] REV 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. 13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. 14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

[38] (Traditionally, I John 5:7 is placed here, but we have, for obvious reasons, omitted it in our online edition) MATT 3:16-17 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. MATT 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. II COR 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

[39] JOHN 1:14,18 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[40] JOHN 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of me. GAL 4:6 And Because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.