Unorthodox Sects - Naming Names

[Ryan]

There are several threads that draw a circle around who's in and who's out.

Thankfully these threads are careful of confusing the person and the group, as Daniel quipped... "Are Catholics Christian? Well some are, and some are not."

But in light of this, I'm curious which self-identified Christian groups you all might consider risky for their followers?

To keep the conversation irenic, let's assume that there is at least one figurative person named Joe [sect], for each group... Joe Southern Baptist, Joe LC-MS, Joe Catholic, Joe Mennonite, Joe JW, Joe Vineyard, Joe Emergent, etc. And that this Joe believes 100% in the teachings of the most "orthodox" version of his group. Joe is not a real person, but instead an archetype for the faithful following of his group.

Given your particular soteriology, which Joe(s) need more theological and evangelistic attention than the others and why?

[Reminder to love one another... While this is a sensitive topic, I trust we'll be able to handle it with care and charity.]

[joanne guarnieri]

I think, by definition, a Christian sect is an offshoot of Christianity, just as Christianity might be defined as a Jewish sect, and in fact Islam, also, could be defined as a Jewish sect.

Therefore every group that is defined as a Christian sect is by definition risky since it has added to, or subtracted from, the gospel (and thereby became a sect, instead of being Christian)

[David Zierenberg]

Not sure what you mean here - "Joe believes 100% in the teachings of the most orthodox version of his group."

Do you mean Joe believes the core distinctives of his group (e.g. Mormons and a plurality of gods or JWs and no deity for Christ) or by orthodox do you mean the portion of Joe's group that is closest to historic Christian orthodoxy. Joe believes the biggest error or the least error?

[Ryan]

Yes, assume Joe is "orthodox" according to the teachings of his particular group. So Joe LCMS is the archetype for the LCMS. He genuinely and faithfully believes everything they teach.

David Zierenberg said:

Not sure what you mean here - "Joe believes 100% in the teachings of the most orthodox version of his group."
Do you mean Joe believes the core distinctives of his group (e.g. Mormons and a plurality of gods or JWs and no deity for Christ) or by orthodox do you mean the portion of Joe's group that is closest to historic Christian orthodoxy. Joe believes the biggest error or the least error?

[Damian]

Ryan,

To quote Robert Downey Jr. from "Tropic Thunder" (a classic of western cinema)... "What the... did you say 'Lance'??!?!?

This is the place where people beat each other up over how long a church service should be.

Go with God my son... you'll need it ;-)

Damian

PS - 1 hour. Sermon = standard law/gospel distinction. All other styles are outside of salvation. So it is written, so it shall be done!

[Ryan]

I had hoped limiting it to "self-identified Christian groups" was enough.

joanne guarnieri said:

I think, by definition, a Christian sect is an offshoot of Christianity, just as Christianity might be defined as a Jewish sect, and in fact Islam, also, could be defined as a Jewish sect.

Therefore every group that is defined as a Christian sect is by definition risky since it has added to, or subtracted from, the gospel (and thereby became a sect, instead of being Christian)

[Ryan]

I'll add that this type of conversation took on a very personal tone last year during discussions about my family's journey to Catholicism. For certain members of our friends and family, we had stepped outside the "circle" into dangerous territory. For them, our salvation was in serious jeopardy (or rather never existed). And while not all of the conversations were as loving as we would've hoped, we were thankful for their concern over something so important.

[Harry]

The Lutheran Confession condemn the following sects: Anabaptists, Schwenkfelders, Unitarians ( New Arians ), and the New Anti-Trinitarians, along with the Papist.

[Damian]

And do you think that's correct Harry?



Harry said:

The Lutheran Confession condemn the following sects: Anabaptists, Schwenkfelders, Unitarians ( New Arians ), and the New Anti-Trinitarians, along with the Papist.

[Ryan]

Thanks Harry. To be clear, is it safe to say that, according to Joe LC-MS (because you cited a confession)... Joe Anabaptist, Joe Schwenkfelders, Joe Unitarian, Joe Anti-Trinitarian, and Joe Roman Catholic do not contain the essential stuff for justification?

Again, assuming each is the 100% archetype for their particular group, not a particular person.

Also, would you mind citing one or two beliefs that tip the scales for the Joes above that lead them outside of the circle? The Schwenkfelders, for instance, I've never heard of.

Harry said:

The Lutheran Confession condemn the following sects: Anabaptists, Schwenkfelders, Unitarians ( New Arians ), and the New Anti-Trinitarians, along with the Papist.

[Harry]

I would be Lutheran if I didn't believe the Confessions. The difference between the LC-MS and the ELCA is that the ELCA has watered down their belief in the Lutheran Confessions to the point that the ELCA can hardly be called Lutheran anymore.

Damian said:

And do you think that's correct Harry?



Harry said:

The Lutheran Confession condemn the following sects: Anabaptists, Schwenkfelders, Unitarians ( New Arians ), and the New Anti-Trinitarians, along with the Papist.

[Damian]

I appreciate that Harry, and I'm not trying to pick here. I believe that confessions (such as the Westminster, Heidelberg in my case, or the Baltimore in Ryan's) are important things that should be recovered. That said, does being an Anabaptist automatically put one outside of Christ's saving efficacy? And would that include the modern baptists of today?

Damian

Harry said:

I would be Lutheran if I didn't believe the Confessions. The difference between the LC-MS and the ELCA is that the ELCA has watered down their belief in the Lutheran Confessions to the point that the ELCA can hardly be called Lutheran anymore.

Damian said:

And do you think that's correct Harry?



Harry said:

The Lutheran Confession condemn the following sects: Anabaptists, Schwenkfelders, Unitarians ( New Arians ), and the New Anti-Trinitarians, along with the Papist.

[Apolojedi (Daniel Eaton)]

Can I cop out and say that *all* Joe's need more theological attention? :) I doubt I'd get away with that. I'd say the ones that need are the ones that end up serving a different God from the one accepted in the Nicene Creed, for example. That list would probably be topped with Joe Mormon, Joe JW, and Joe Word-Faith.

Daniel