Was it easier to have faith before we "knew" so much?

[JRKH]

Just something that has been rattling around in my brain for awhile and the science threads kind of kicked it forward again. 

 

Has our techno-scientific world view made it more difficult to have - and keep - real, deep, permeating faith?  The kind of faith that heals?  The kind of faith that results in miracles?

 

Most of us are immersed in the "scientific view" of study, theories, hypothoses, proofs, etc.... In a sense these things, while not bad in and of themselves, can seem to push God (and faith) further into the background. 

In our techno world we are not as close to the elemental world of our forebears.  We are insulated from the elements by gadgets of our own making and under our own control, from cars and computers to climate control and easily obtained food and clothing. 

All of this, it seems, makes it more difficult to "accept on faith" and to rely onf faith..... 

 

As you can tell this is not a very well formulated idea, but I think you get what I mean. 

Any other thoughts or opinions???

 

Peace

James

[Phoebe]

Xulon hit the nail squarely in the head, our faith is a gift of God, and I would say it is developed through prayer and meditation on the Word.

For me personally, as the Sciences progress in unravelling some of the mysteries of the natural world and universe around us, they reveal more and more of the glory of God and His awesomeness, which can only lead to praising Him even more, which in turn perhaps deepens my faith.

[JRKH]

I agree that the gift must be nurtured. In a sense this feeds into the point.

Christ says this about faith in Mt 17
19 Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, "Why could we not cast it out?" 20 He said to them, "Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you."

What does this say about the size of our faith......

peace
James

[Paul]

My two cents...
The technocratic mindset you are talking about definitely has an effect on people's faith in our culture as a whole - there is less of a felt need for God as we can (seemingly) solve all of our problems on our own. An overabundance of material goods makes us feel secure without God... He just kind of seems to get in the way for a lot of people (thinking of people I know personally, myself as well on my worse days).
As for our more scientific understanding of the universe, I don't think it is an enemy of faith, at least not for me personally. The more I learn about the nature of the cosmos, biological life, etc., the more I see how miraculous life in our universe really is. The very fact that life exists and develops the way it does to me seems like one big miracle, so if anything I find it strengthens my faith.

[JRKH]

Well stated Paul.
Your first paragraph speaks to much of what was in my mind as well. The security we have, both from our material goods and protections, and from our greater knowledge of our surroundings, tends to put distance between people and God.
Your second paragraph, while true, seems to speak more toward a "macro"-faith. Stnading in Awe of God's great creation, but not so much to a "micro" - faith, God acting in and through us.

Man it's so hard to express these things the way I want to....

Peace
James

Paul said:

My two cents...
The technocratic mindset you are talking about definitely has an effect on people's faith in our culture as a whole - there is less of a felt need for God as we can (seemingly) solve all of our problems on our own. An overabundance of material goods makes us feel secure without God... He just kind of seems to get in the way for a lot of people (thinking of people I know personally, myself as well on my worse days).
As for our more scientific understanding of the universe, I don't think it is an enemy of faith, at least not for me personally. The more I learn about the nature of the cosmos, biological life, etc., the more I see how miraculous life in our universe really is. The very fact that life exists and develops the way it does to me seems like one big miracle, so if anything I find it strengthens my faith.

[JRKH]

xulon,
Thanks for the link. I skimmed through it quickly and will have to read it more carefully later. From what I could garner, I like the train of thought.

As to the passage I quoted, while I'll grant there are no recorded cases of a miraculous moving of a mountain, yet Christ was speaking to a concrete example, that being the expelling of a demon, or a healing. So the underlying idea of how great our faith is as compared to something as small as a mustard seed still applies.

Something else that just comes to me in this. The Disciples questioned Jesus about why they could not expell the demon and Christ refered to their faith. When various people would come to Christ for healing, He would generally respond with something relating to the faith of the one healed. So the question might be asked too, what is the relationship between the faith of the sick person and the one ministering to the sick.....

Please
James

xulon said:

Are you using that passage to make a statement about the present day church? If I am right that Faith is response to Revelation, then your standards (the splashy from man's view) are inadequate. Since no mountains have ever been moved (mainly people spiritualize the promise to the "mountains" of my bills, my job, my church's ability to add a new wing despite zoning laws, etc), I would say it's because God has never revealed that a mountain is to be moved (Yet! But Zechariah 14:4). I really don't think you are in a position to know what faith is accomplishing in believers or in the Church ( I know I define "church" more broadly and invisibly than you, but I think that statement is true even by your own definition).

JRKH said:

What does this say about the size of our faith......

[Phoebe]

In Matt 13 we see that this tiny seed grows to the largest shrub in the garden, so a very small act of genuine faith can have huge results.

JRKH said:

I agree that the gift must be nurtured. In a sense this feeds into the point.

Christ says this about faith in Mt 17
19 Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, "Why could we not cast it out?" 20 He said to them, "Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you."

What does this say about the size of our faith......

peace
James

[Phoebe]

Another thought; our Lord said to the disciples to add fasting to our praying.

Phoebe said:

In Matt 13 we see that this tiny seed grows to the largest shrub in the garden, so a very small act of genuine faith can have huge results.

JRKH said:

I agree that the gift must be nurtured. In a sense this feeds into the point.

Christ says this about faith in Mt 17
19 Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, "Why could we not cast it out?" 20 He said to them, "Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you."

What does this say about the size of our faith......

peace
James

[Daniel]

I think as we grow more scientific, we can obtain new reasons or validations for our beliefs. It is a faith with proof. A reasonable faith over a blind faith. Are we better off with more reason and less faith? I don't know. Is one pointer to God any more godly than another? I'm going to say something heretical here, but sometimes I think we make too big of a deal over faith. What I mean by that is that we are told to always be prepared to defend the faith that is within us. "I believe it" or "I strongly believe it" is not a good defense. Yet I've heard arguments made before that some interpretation of something is the better one because it strengthens our faith. Seems as if some people have the idea that the less support for something there is, the more Godly it is to believe it. That kind of logic has me

Daniel

[bob johnson]

JRKH

I believe I get the jest of what you're saying. I have always wondered at the fact that it was Cain's side of the family that went on to "make tools of iron and brass". In other words technology. I think the ruler of this world uses this to give us the impression that we don't need God, and this ruse works quite well from the looks of things.

[JRKH]

Something else that I just read recently and was brought back to mind on another board, was something from st Theresa of Liseaux's book, "The Story of a Soul". In it she relatesthat she was talking to another, older, sister about how she found it difficult to speak about what was going on in her soul, even to her superiors. The older nun responded, "[It is] because your soul is extremely simple, but when you will be perfect, you will be even more simple, the closer one approaches to God, the simpler one becomes." (Story of a Soul, ch VII para 21-23)

I think this speaks strongly to my question. Today we are simply not as "simple" as were those in the past, and in particular the ancient past. Not only that, but we are trained (by our culture) from little on NOT to be simple. Be busy, aquire things, etc....

All of which interferes with our being "simple"....of receiving the kingdom like a child.

Peace
James

[Marc Anthony]

Knowledge is good. So is faith.

The two should never contradict each other, and when both are properly understood both will lead us closer to God.

[Daniel]

Marc Anthony said:

Knowledge is good. So is faith.

The two should never contradict each other, and when both are properly understood both will lead us closer to God.

That is a great way to put it. Both the prophets and the heavens declare God's glory.

Daniel