What is the Churches Rightful place in a Nation

[Brian Feaster]

If the Catholics had it wrong in making the church into a theocracy and the Amish & Monastics had it wrong in separating themselves from society, how is the church supposed to function in this world as a Spiritual Community - Salt of the Earth - A City on a Hill - A Light in the Darkness...etc. In other words, "What is our rightful place in this world?" How should it play itself out. Remember I'm thinking of the church "community"and not an "individual" Christian." I'm thinking of the rightful place that the church government has in this world. What would you say it is? And how should it be carried out?

[James Gibbons]

As wheat in a field of tares.

[James Gibbons]

“church government” is almost an oxymoron to me.

[Harry]

I think that Lutherans have the correct view, we have have the doctrine of the two kingdoms. God rules the Church in the Right Hand Kingdom and He rules the culture in the Left Hand Kingdom but in a different ways.
Christians must be in, but not of the world. God works behind the secular realm.

[David Neiss]

I've been wrestling with this big issue as well. Blogged about it if it helps.

http://neisssteps.wordpress.com/2009/02/20/the-road-out-exodus-from...

[Brian Feaster]

Thanks for the reply, David.

I found your blog to be very interesting. And I appreciate you sharing your evolution of convictions over the last twenty years.

I agree that our simple Christian world views aren't as simple as we like to make them out to be. I also agree that trying to clutch at political power is a big mistake. Roman Catholic Church history taught us that.
I share most of your views here.

I'd like to know how you think the church could possibly do a sufficient job at caring for the poor without neglecting any of their basic needs. I ask because I always hear Christians say that it is the churches responsibility to care for the poor, as opposed to the government. But I have yet to hear about how this is to take place. So could you tell me what you have in mind? Because after all hand-outs are taken, from those who can work, takes place, there are still millions of people who are left to be taken care of and too many of them cannot be supported adequately by their family, not to mention those who have families that refuse to care for them. Remember the cost of living; rent, food, health-care, clothing, utilities...etc. It seems to me that even a collaboration of wealthy churches couldn't handle taking on this weight. Are we properly interpreting Jesus' command to take care of the poor? Do you have a regular occurrence of divine intervention to accomplish this good deed?

I don't think that it is the government's responsibility to care of the poor either. I'm just trying to look at this issue from a pragmatic point of view. “Can it work”? “What would work better”?

It's also hard for me to see how God would condemn a country for having a government that takes care of its poor. But this is a difficult issue. And after reading your blog, I'm eager to hear your answer.

Thanks again,
David.


David Neiss said:

I've been wrestling with this big issue as well. Blogged about it if it helps.

http://neisssteps.wordpress.com/2009/02/20/the-road-out-exodus-from...

[Brian Feaster]

Thanks for the reply, James.

Could you tell me more about your interpretation of the wheat and tares and how it plays out in a nation or just the church? There are more than one interpretations to settle on, regarding the wheat and the tares, and I'd like to be sure of yours.

James Gibbons said:

As wheat in a field of tares.

[Brian Feaster]

Oxymoron!?!
How so?

Hope to hear from you soon, James.



James Gibbons said:

“church government” is almost an oxymoron to me.

[Brian Feaster]

Thanks for the reply, Harry.

I think I understand your point. Just for the sake of being sure, could you tell me how the church is to be in the world and not of it by telling me exactly how you think it supposed to play out in a nation?

Thanks.


Harry said:

I think that Lutherans have the correct view, we have have the doctrine of the two kingdoms. God rules the Church in the Right Hand Kingdom and He rules the culture in the Left Hand Kingdom but in a different ways.
Christians must be in, but not of the world. God works behind the secular realm.

[Harry]

God calls us to be good citizens and use our many vocations to serve our fellow man. God uses our goverment to maintain order and to serve its citizens. Christians should be under no illusion that they can creat heaven on earth. Christian citizens are to criticize evil wherever they see it including their leaders. Christians are to uphold God's moral demands.

[Kathy]

Brian -

You might enjoy my blog post called Meaningless Offerings.

It's hard to understand that it is God who ordains some to be poor- - it is God who ordains some to be wealthy. Those of us who are wealthy are to give a portion of our wealth to the poor. It used to be that fields would be left with plenty of food to be gleaned by the poor. Today that isn't possible. Some depend on their church to give for them. I prefer to do that myself. While it is important to work through community and give to community, I believe we each answer to God for our gifts and faithfulness to give.

There is no way to take care of everyone who is poor, unfortunately....but as a volunteer for Compassion International, I can tell you that if every Christian sponsored just one child in poverty, the world would be a better place. Some of us sponsor more than one..... And Compassion does require accountability for those it helps -- just as the poor would glean and work for their food in the fields. It's not enough to just give food to the poor-- you must give hope and ignite a desire in them to leave poverty. No way is perfect, but if we just sit here and do nothing, nothing gets accomplished. We are his hands and feet. He doesn't need us.

Finally, I'm not sure I believe in the concept of a "Christian nation." While it may be desired to be so, I don't see any realistic way of achieving this unless everyone in the nation is "Christian". We live in an ever-increasing secular nation. We need to be salt and light within our sphere of influence. We need to stand up for things within the governmental structure that go against what we believe is right, but we should do so with balance and with an understanding that non-Christians can't understand our Christian view. We need to learn how to reasonably defend our position with balance instead of using the Bible as an object to beat them with.

So hey -- you guys know I'm going to ask.....why don't you sponsor just one child and make a difference? For a dollar a day, you can help one special kid eat, receive medical care and schooling and most of all, allow them to hear the gospel message loudly and clearly. You can give them a desire to rise above their circumstances. Go here and pick a child to serve with the love that Christ has bestowed upon you.

[Harry]

I don't believe that God ordains people to be poor, rich or in between, that is like saying He elects some to heaven and some to hell. The United States was never a Christian nation. Many of the founding fathers were Dietist or marginal Christians.

Kathy said:

Brian -

You might enjoy my blog post called Meaningless Offerings.

It's hard to understand that it is God who ordains some to be poor- - it is God who ordains some to be wealthy. Those of us who are wealthy are to give a portion of our wealth to the poor. It used to be that fields would be left with plenty of food to be gleaned by the poor. Today that isn't possible. Some depend on their church to give for them. I prefer to do that myself. While it is important to work through community and give to community, I believe we each answer to God for our gifts and faithfulness to give.

There is no way to take care of everyone who is poor, unfortunately....but as a volunteer for Compassion International, I can tell you that if every Christian sponsored just one child in poverty, the world would be a better place. Some of us sponsor more than one..... And Compassion does require accountability for those it helps -- just as the poor would glean and work for their food in the fields. It's not enough to just give food to the poor-- you must give hope and ignite a desire in them to leave poverty. No way is perfect, but if we just sit here and do nothing, nothing gets accomplished. We are his hands and feet. He doesn't need us.

Finally, I'm not sure I believe in the concept of a "Christian nation." While it may be desired to be so, I don't see any realistic way of achieving this unless everyone in the nation is "Christian". We live in an ever-increasing secular nation. We need to be salt and light within our sphere of influence. We need to stand up for things within the governmental structure that go against what we believe is right, but we should do so with balance and with an understanding that non-Christians can't understand our Christian view. We need to learn how to reasonably defend our position with balance instead of using the Bible as an object to beat them with.

So hey -- you guys know I'm going to ask.....why don't you sponsor just one child and make a difference? For a dollar a day, you can help one special kid eat, receive medical care and schooling and most of all, allow them to hear the gospel message loudly and clearly. You can give them a desire to rise above their circumstances. Go here and pick a child to serve with the love that Christ has bestowed upon you.

[Kathy]

So you don't believe in God's sovereignty?

Harry said:

I don't believe that God ordains people to be poor, rich or in between, that is like saying He elects some to heaven and some to hell. The United States was never a Christian nation. Many of the founding fathers were Dietist or marginal Christians.

Kathy said:

Brian -

You might enjoy my blog post called Meaningless Offerings.

It's hard to understand that it is God who ordains some to be poor- - it is God who ordains some to be wealthy. Those of us who are wealthy are to give a portion of our wealth to the poor. It used to be that fields would be left with plenty of food to be gleaned by the poor. Today that isn't possible. Some depend on their church to give for them. I prefer to do that myself. While it is important to work through community and give to community, I believe we each answer to God for our gifts and faithfulness to give.

There is no way to take care of everyone who is poor, unfortunately....but as a volunteer for Compassion International, I can tell you that if every Christian sponsored just one child in poverty, the world would be a better place. Some of us sponsor more than one..... And Compassion does require accountability for those it helps -- just as the poor would glean and work for their food in the fields. It's not enough to just give food to the poor-- you must give hope and ignite a desire in them to leave poverty. No way is perfect, but if we just sit here and do nothing, nothing gets accomplished. We are his hands and feet. He doesn't need us.

Finally, I'm not sure I believe in the concept of a "Christian nation." While it may be desired to be so, I don't see any realistic way of achieving this unless everyone in the nation is "Christian". We live in an ever-increasing secular nation. We need to be salt and light within our sphere of influence. We need to stand up for things within the governmental structure that go against what we believe is right, but we should do so with balance and with an understanding that non-Christians can't understand our Christian view. We need to learn how to reasonably defend our position with balance instead of using the Bible as an object to beat them with.

So hey -- you guys know I'm going to ask.....why don't you sponsor just one child and make a difference? For a dollar a day, you can help one special kid eat, receive medical care and schooling and most of all, allow them to hear the gospel message loudly and clearly. You can give them a desire to rise above their circumstances. Go here and pick a child to serve with the love that Christ has bestowed upon you.