What The Bible Really Says -- The Ninth Commandment

[Michael Peterson]

Exodus 20:16 (and its counterpart in Deut) are pretty clear, I think. Most English Bibles render the verse along these lines:

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor

I would offer that there is less here than meets the eye and would be very interested in what other views are out there. 

My interest is somewhat self-serving. I teach a course on biblical ethics and I spend a good deal of time on lying - when is lying permissible and when is it not. In preparation for this winter's course, one of the tasks I set before myself was to develop a more thorough (deeper?) understanding of this important injunction. Critical to understanding this commandment, contra many Sunday school teachings, is that it does not constitute a general prohibition against lying. I would be interested in any thoughts you might have. My translation and discussion can be found here.

Blessings,

Michael

 

[Jax Agnesson]

Good idea.

Telling fibs is a sin, always.

Disobeying whichever gang of hoods happens to be in control of your country is a sin. Always.

Killing children might and might not be a sin, depending on whether your local gang of hoods says its OK..

That's Christian morality sorted out, now let's move on to something amusing..

Marv said:

Let's move on. What about coveting your neighbor's wife? Let's say your neighbor was an SS officer...

[Daniel]

It is not that there is wiggle room in a command that says "don't kill".  The point is that the TRANSLATION of "kill" is overly broad.  The actual word used in the command is "murder".  There is no wiggle room there.  All murder is bad.  Since war isn't murder, if I were a soldier I would obey those in my chain of command and follow the rules of war.  Capital punishment isn't murder either.  Many believe the killing of an innocent baby in the womb IS murder though, so there is no hypocrisy when it comes to following the ten commandments as it relates to the death penalty and abortion.

Jax Agnesson said:

Amazing theology, Daniel!

Telling lies for personal gain (to get food or to protect your own or someone else's safety or even their property) is wrong- no exceptions. no excuses, it's a sin.

Disobeying those who happen to be holding political power in your part of the world is a sin also. No ifs, no buts, God placed them there for His own inscrutable reasons.

But killing your fellow humans, that's debatable. There are lots of reasons why killing actual people might be OK, or even mandatory.

After all, if we worship a god with a track-record like Jahweh's,. . . well, we can understand why He doesn't like pacifists!

IIRC, there was a phrase from the Viet Nam era - -"Waste 'em all. Let God sort em out!" I thought at the time this phrase was invented by some anti-war artist as a slur on the morality of the US soldiers. Maybe you think that phrase expresses the morality of the US soldiers?

Well actually, the prohibition is against murder - a deliberate killing.  In cases of things like killing animals for food, warfare, self defense, capital punishment, accidental death, and so forth, that command doesn't apply.  

[Daniel]

I've seen my neighbor's wife.  Trust me.  Ain't going to happen! LOL

Marv said:

Let's move on. What about coveting your neighbor's wife? Let's say your neighbor was an SS officer...

[Daniel]

'Cause there is that famous verse that says join a gang because God put them there for you to obey?  

Jax Agnesson said:

Killing children might and might not be a sin, depending on whether your local gang of hoods says its OK..

[Marv]

Don't forget genre. Fixes everything.

Daniel said:

'Cause there is that famous verse that says join a gang because God put them there for you to obey?  

Jax Agnesson said:

Killing children might and might not be a sin, depending on whether your local gang of hoods says its OK..

[Jax Agnesson]

Thanks for that, Daniel. Confirms everything I suggested in my previous post. . . .

Daniel said:

It is not that there is wiggle room in a command that says "don't kill".  The point is that the TRANSLATION of "kill" is overly broad.  The actual word used in the command is "murder".  There is no wiggle room there.  All murder is bad.  Since war isn't murder, if I were a soldier I would obey those in my chain of command and follow the rules of war.  Capital punishment isn't murder either.  Many believe the killing of an innocent baby in the womb IS murder though, so there is no hypocrisy when it comes to following the ten commandments as it relates to the death penalty and abortion.

Jax Agnesson said:

Amazing theology, Daniel!

Telling lies for personal gain (to get food or to protect your own or someone else's safety or even their property) is wrong- no exceptions. no excuses, it's a sin.

Disobeying those who happen to be holding political power in your part of the world is a sin also. No ifs, no buts, God placed them there for His own inscrutable reasons.

But killing your fellow humans, that's debatable. There are lots of reasons why killing actual people might be OK, or even mandatory.

[Peter John Ellway]

Glad you said this, Daniel, and in a way you are right.  Murder is indeed always wrong, we agree on that. But why do we agree that it's always wrong? Because the wrongness is embedded in the meaning of the word. We just don't call killing "murder" unless we think it's wrong; again, we have this circularity of ethical judgment. I can relate to people who call abortion murder, but I can also relate to people who call killing in wartime murder (ie pacifists) and to people who call meat murder (animal liberationists) and of course I relate very much to those who call capital punishment murder. I am not either a pacifist or an animal liberationist, and so I don't actually go along with these judgments, but they are at least as plausible as those of anti-abortionists; I am against capital punishment, though if it were shown as effective in stopping what we all agree is murder, I might support it. But it's not that important which sort of killing I approve of or don't approve of - or what you approve of or don't of. Murder, in short, is a legal term, not a moral one. The Bible says simply "Thou shalt not kill". That is a lot simpler than "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour", yet, as Jax has pointed out, you are more unwavering on the latter rather than the former. I would love to know why.

Daniel said:

It is not that there is wiggle room in a command that says "don't kill".  The point is that the TRANSLATION of "kill" is overly broad.  The actual word used in the command is "murder".  There is no wiggle room there.  All murder is bad.  Since war isn't murder, if I were a soldier I would obey those in my chain of command and follow the rules of war.  Capital punishment isn't murder either.  Many believe the killing of an innocent baby in the womb IS murder though, so there is no hypocrisy when it comes to following the ten commandments as it relates to the death penalty and abortion.

Jax Agnesson said:

Amazing theology, Daniel!

Telling lies for personal gain (to get food or to protect your own or someone else's safety or even their property) is wrong- no exceptions. no excuses, it's a sin.

Disobeying those who happen to be holding political power in your part of the world is a sin also. No ifs, no buts, God placed them there for His own inscrutable reasons.

But killing your fellow humans, that's debatable. There are lots of reasons why killing actual people might be OK, or even mandatory.

After all, if we worship a god with a track-record like Jahweh's,. . . well, we can understand why He doesn't like pacifists!

IIRC, there was a phrase from the Viet Nam era - -"Waste 'em all. Let God sort em out!" I thought at the time this phrase was invented by some anti-war artist as a slur on the morality of the US soldiers. Maybe you think that phrase expresses the morality of the US soldiers?

Well actually, the prohibition is against murder - a deliberate killing.  In cases of things like killing animals for food, warfare, self defense, capital punishment, accidental death, and so forth, that command doesn't apply.  

[Jax Agnesson]

Exactly right Marv.

As in 'The Resistible Rise of Arturo Ui.'

Or 'The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire.'

Or "Forest Gump."

Marv said:

Don't forget genre. Fixes everything.

Daniel said:

'Cause there is that famous verse that says join a gang because God put them there for you to obey?  

Jax Agnesson said:

Killing children might and might not be a sin, depending on whether your local gang of hoods says its OK..

[Daniel]

What does and does not make a death "murder" is good fodder for a different discussion.  But I have to disagree with your statement that, "The Bible says simply "Thou shalt not kill"."  Your TRANSLATION says that.  And it is a bad translation when using an overly broad word "kill".  The actual Hebrew word there isn't that broad.  It is the word "murder", which also includes causing human death through carelessness or negligence (intentional manslaughter).  So it isn't as if I am more dogmatic about lying than I am "killing".  I am equally dogmatic about lying as I am murder.  Both are prohibited.

Peter John Ellway said:

Glad you said this, Daniel, and in a way you are right.  Murder is indeed always wrong, we agree on that. But why do we agree that it's always wrong? Because the wrongness is embedded in the meaning of the word. We just don't call killing "murder" unless we think it's wrong; again, we have this circularity of ethical judgment. I can relate to people who call abortion murder, but I can also relate to people who call killing in wartime murder (ie pacifists) and to people who call meat murder (animal liberationists) and of course I relate very much to those who call capital punishment murder. I am not either a pacifist or an animal liberationist, and so I don't actually go along with these judgments, but they are at least as plausible as those of anti-abortionists; I am against capital punishment, though if it were shown as effective in stopping what we all agree is murder, I might support it. But it's not that important which sort of killing I approve of or don't approve of - or what you approve of or don't of. Murder, in short, is a legal term, not a moral one. The Bible says simply "Thou shalt not kill". That is a lot simpler than "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour", yet, as Jax has pointed out, you are more unwavering on the latter rather than the former. I would love to know why.

Daniel said:

It is not that there is wiggle room in a command that says "don't kill".  The point is that the TRANSLATION of "kill" is overly broad.  The actual word used in the command is "murder".  There is no wiggle room there.  All murder is bad.  Since war isn't murder, if I were a soldier I would obey those in my chain of command and follow the rules of war.  Capital punishment isn't murder either.  Many believe the killing of an innocent baby in the womb IS murder though, so there is no hypocrisy when it comes to following the ten commandments as it relates to the death penalty and abortion.

Jax Agnesson said:

Amazing theology, Daniel!

Telling lies for personal gain (to get food or to protect your own or someone else's safety or even their property) is wrong- no exceptions. no excuses, it's a sin.

Disobeying those who happen to be holding political power in your part of the world is a sin also. No ifs, no buts, God placed them there for His own inscrutable reasons.

But killing your fellow humans, that's debatable. There are lots of reasons why killing actual people might be OK, or even mandatory.

After all, if we worship a god with a track-record like Jahweh's,. . . well, we can understand why He doesn't like pacifists!

IIRC, there was a phrase from the Viet Nam era - -"Waste 'em all. Let God sort em out!" I thought at the time this phrase was invented by some anti-war artist as a slur on the morality of the US soldiers. Maybe you think that phrase expresses the morality of the US soldiers?

Well actually, the prohibition is against murder - a deliberate killing.  In cases of things like killing animals for food, warfare, self defense, capital punishment, accidental death, and so forth, that command doesn't apply.  

[Jax Agnesson]

Thanks again Daniel. But my intention was not to accuse you of dogmatism. It wasn't about you at all, it was about your beliefs. And again you have merely reinforced my interpretation of your beliefs. If anything in the quote here is contrary to what you believe, please clarify. Jax.

Telling lies for personal gain (to get food or to protect your own or someone else's safety or even their property) is wrong- no exceptions. no excuses, it's a sin.

Disobeying those who happen to be holding political power in your part of the world is a sin also. No ifs, no buts.

But killing your fellow humans, that's debatable. There are lots of reasons why killing people might be OK, or even mandatory.

[Peter John Ellway]

I see what you mean, and I have no intention of disputing this - it is pretty obvious (even to the Bible-ignorant likes of moi!) that "killing" must at most refer to killing humans. Rather worrying that "my" translation says "kill", not "murder", though - I have never heard "murder" suggested as the proper translation till now. Given that the Bible is the basis of your faith, I would have though that such translation problems were, er, pretty worrying for you. And anyway, I trust you get my point that, if the commandment really does mean "murder", it is a vacuous tautology: murder cannot but be wrong

Daniel said:

It is not that there is wiggle room in a command that says "don't kill".  The point is that the TRANSLATION of "kill" is overly broad.  The actual word used in the command is "murder".  There is no wiggle room there.  All murder is bad.  Since war isn't murder, if I were a soldier I would obey those in my chain of command and follow the rules of war.  Capital punishment isn't murder either.  Many believe the killing of an innocent baby in the womb IS murder though, so there is no hypocrisy when it comes to following the ten commandments as it relates to the death penalty and abortion.

Jax Agnesson said:

Amazing theology, Daniel!

Telling lies for personal gain (to get food or to protect your own or someone else's safety or even their property) is wrong- no exceptions. no excuses, it's a sin.

Disobeying those who happen to be holding political power in your part of the world is a sin also. No ifs, no buts, God placed them there for His own inscrutable reasons.

But killing your fellow humans, that's debatable. There are lots of reasons why killing actual people might be OK, or even mandatory.

After all, if we worship a god with a track-record like Jahweh's,. . . well, we can understand why He doesn't like pacifists!

IIRC, there was a phrase from the Viet Nam era - -"Waste 'em all. Let God sort em out!" I thought at the time this phrase was invented by some anti-war artist as a slur on the morality of the US soldiers. Maybe you think that phrase expresses the morality of the US soldiers?

Well actually, the prohibition is against murder - a deliberate killing.  In cases of things like killing animals for food, warfare, self defense, capital punishment, accidental death, and so forth, that command doesn't apply.  

[Daniel]

The only things I'd clarify or quantify is that (1) these are my convictions and others have different convictions (in other words, there may be dogmatism but it may be more on my part than that of the text), and (2) there is a difference between "don't lie" and "always truthfully say anything you are thinking".
 
Jax Agnesson said:

If anything in the quote here is contrary to what you believe, please clarify. Jax.