Where is Judas?

[Daniel]

For the third Sunday in a row, the guy I consider "my" pastor has made comments about the danger of being like Judas and seeing/knowing all about Christ and ending up in hell.  I don't get it.  Why are some folks so convinced that Judas is in hell?  Seems to be a huge assumption.  I understand his body was buried in a place that was linguistically linked to hell, but I can't see why we should believe he's literally in hell.  So help me.  Give me your strongest case for Judas' eternal destination.  And let me know what you think of this link.

[Bit Brush]

That man being Judas would then be correct, correct?

[Daniel]

Depends on which man "that man" is referring to.  According to the note I posted from that link, several translation indicate that it should be understood as it would have been better for Jesus had Judas not been born.

Bit Brush said:

That man being Judas would then be correct, correct?

[mem]

Daniel said:

Depends on which man "that man" is referring to.  According to the note I posted from that link, several translation indicate that it should be understood as it would have been better for Jesus had Judas not been born.

Bit Brush said:

That man being Judas would then be correct, correct?

<unlurk>

While I won't venture to comment much on the rest of the page, the grammatical conception represented here is called cataphora by two-dollar-word users and "forward pronoun reference" by everyone else.

Because it specifically referenced Luther's German Bible, I decided to look at it to see if the case was made solidly: and it's really not. The grammar and context both point to Judas being the object of the sentence.



<relurk>

[E. A. Johnston]

I loved that. Thanks for sharing.

mem said:

Daniel said:

Depends on which man "that man" is referring to.  According to the note I posted from that link, several translation indicate that it should be understood as it would have been better for Jesus had Judas not been born.

Bit Brush said:

That man being Judas would then be correct, correct?

<unlurk>

While I won't venture to comment much on the rest of the page, the grammatical conception represented here is called cataphora by two-dollar-word users and "forward pronoun reference" by everyone else.

Because it specifically referenced Luther's German Bible, I decided to look at it to see if the case was made solidly: and it's really not. The grammar and context both point to Judas being the object of the sentence.



<relurk>

[Daniel]

mem said:

Because it specifically referenced Luther's German Bible, I decided to look at it to see if the case was made solidly: and it's really not. The grammar and context both point to Judas being the object of the sentence.

So do the other translations listed that come to the same conclusion do so independently, or are they just picking up the Luther understanding and being influenced by that?

[Char]

Good job mem. I knew you could post on your own.

mem said:

[Char]

This is for Ray, where ever he is.

Daniel said:

But doesn't it beg the question as to which of the two readings was preserved? 

[Marv]

While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
(John 17:12 ESV)

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16 ESV)

Same verb and corresponding noun.  Does Judas' betrayal and his physical death account for this language?

BTW, most of the items on that list are pretty darn silly.

These guys think Judas didn't go to hell, mainly because they think no one does.

[matthew]

Judas rejected Christ Jesus - where else would you expect a Christ rejecting person to be - most obvious - any unbeliever (Judas types, Way of Cain types, etc) will upon death - will be sent immediately to the center of the earth: Hell

Hell is a place of torments where fire is always burning and pain is always known by the individual in Hell. All these truths are clearly in Scripture for any reader to heed. Until the Lake of Fire is setup for unbelievers, until such time, all unbelievers will be immediately sent to Hell upon their departure from the living on earth's surface. Hell is a real place - Christ Jesus spoke about it countless times. Heed the Word of God - Hell is a real place with continuous fire and pain upon all individuals in Hell. 

The reason for Hell's fire and pain - until the final wrath of God in Revelation - those individuals in Hell will not escape God's wrath in Revelation - but rather, God's wrath is already upon them in Hell. Hell is to hold them within God's current wrath on these individuals in Hell, until the Lake of Fire is setup and they are transferred into the Lake of Fire.

Hell is real - that is why we as believers must freely share the Gospel of Grace for the unbeliever to accept that Christ died on the cross, and three days hence, Christ rose from the dead and after appearing to the apostles for many days, then Christ ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of God the Father.

[Bit Brush]

Technically no one is in hell...yet. ;)

Marv said:

While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
(John 17:12 ESV)

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16 ESV)

Same verb and corresponding noun.  Does Judas' betrayal and his physical death account for this language?

BTW, most of the items on that list are pretty darn silly.

These guys think Judas didn't go to hell, mainly because they think no one does.

[mem]

Luther's understanding is presumably based on the same feature of grammar as Greek. I doubt anyone on the list of translations followed Luther for their translational work (least of all the Douay-Rheims). Somewhat unexpectedly, there are zero notes in the NET Bible on the verse in question.


There is no reason to suppose that there's a translational problem here. It's simply a forward pronoun reference. The Bible notes in the ASV and others are probably there to tell you, "Hey, this is a forward pronoun reference," not to indicate that the translation is in any way ambiguous.



Daniel said:

mem said:

Because it specifically referenced Luther's German Bible, I decided to look at it to see if the case was made solidly: and it's really not. The grammar and context both point to Judas being the object of the sentence.

So do the other translations listed that come to the same conclusion do so independently, or are they just picking up the Luther understanding and being influenced by that?

[matthew]

[ Bit Bruch ] What Bible are your reading...'no one is in Hell yet'!!!... the Sadducees denied the resurrection... the Lord Jesus Christ mentions Hell 15 times in the Gospel, which of those Words of Christ regarding Hell did you not understand? If you think 'no one is in Hell yet'  then show us the verse that proves this.

In Isaiah 14, if Isaiah write that Hell is stirring up the dead for Satan, even the chief dead ones of the earth! If you posit that - 'no one is in Hell yet'  - then who are these dead ones, even the chief dead ones of the earth?

Isaiah 14:9: Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Bit Brush said:

Technically no one is in hell...yet. ;)

Marv said:

While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
(John 17:12 ESV)

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16 ESV)

Same verb and corresponding noun.  Does Judas' betrayal and his physical death account for this language?

BTW, most of the items on that list are pretty darn silly.

These guys think Judas didn't go to hell, mainly because they think no one does.