Working on your relationship with God (Emphasis on "working")

[Dave Z]

Here.  What is the essence of the Christian life?  This guy has an interesting, maybe unconventional perpective on how one grows as a Christian.

What say ye? 

[Leslie Jebaraj]

I fully agree. Christian life is loving God AND man.

[Leslie Jebaraj]

I don't think he's saying being decent is Christian, but that Christians ought to be "decent", meaning loving. At least, that's how I get it.

[Rick C.]

Hello Dave . . . it's been a while, eh?

After being an "unchurched" for a quite a spell, I began attending a church.  I visited for a few months, then went regularly for about a year.  'Took three courses on: Discover Your Spiritual Gifts & Learn How to Use Them, How to Become a Cell Group Leader, and a 12 week membership class.  At the last minute I decided not to join due to doctrinal issues (required tithing, which I don't believe in, was one, which wasn't the Biggee, but never mind the rest) . . . .

In the "Gifts" course I was basically told that something must be the matter with me because I haven't been "using" my Gift(s).  In fact, I was essentially reprimanded by the instructor (right in front of everybody & God).  Apparently, my being unemployed at the time, coupled with my introverted (INTP) personality, just didn't measure up to the standards of The God Squad (ooops, I meant "local church").  

 

Well, I kept going to the church in spite of being humiliated, though I couldn't afford insurance on my truck at the time (and that was kinda dangerous to be driving much more than I really had to).  But, of course, I knew that if I wanted to have a good relationship with God I had to be in church.  I mean, at least once a week <--- (sarcasm).

   

The above mentioned doctrinal issues--actually THE BIGGEE--I decided to meet with one of the pastors.  This was the main hurdle I had in terms of worldview and/or beliefs and if I would join the church.  The pastor dodged my questions.  However, he did note that I have a history of witnessing; that I'm not shy about talking about God.  So he offered me a "position" of being a Bible Study Greeter, wherein I'd pass out free coffee mugs, say Hi to new people, and get their address and other pertinent info.  I told him I'd be considering this, as I look for work, and so as I could get insurance on my truck. 

---"Bible Study Greeter Has Nasty Fender Bender With ACLUish Atheist On Way To Church"--- 

     

Sigh.

I guess maybe I think too much about doctrines <---(sarcasm).

After all, I coulda been using My Gift(s) in such a godly and totally extraverted way.

Something must be the matter with me.

I try to be friendly to anyone anytime anywhen.  In fact, I have some really decent relationships with non-Christians.  For some reason they don't require anything of me.  I don't know.  Maybe the Christians are right?  I'm thinking I should fast for a week or so, then go evangelize Afghanistan <---(sarcasm).

Enuf said.

I'm feeling REALLY guilty now <---NOT!!!!

HAGD, Bro Dave!

   

 

[JRKH]

One of my favorite quotes, attributed to St Francis, goes, "Preach the Gospel always.  When necessary use words."

To me this simple statement sums up what the gentleman in the link was trying to say. 

We can also look at the Gospels for support in this matter.  Just read the judgement account in Mt 25:31-46 ( I was thirsty...)

But mostly we can look at the two great commandments in Mt 22:36-40.  We are to Love God above all things and Love our neighbor as our selves. 

Can we ever Love God as God deserves to be Loved?  The answer is pretty obviously no.  So - We Love our neighbor, God's creations, out of Love for God.

If one wants to grow closer to God, then do so in Love - and that Love is shown in service to others. 

Peach the Gospel always.  when necessary, use words.

Peace

James

[JRKH]

Rick,

Man I'm sorry that church did not appreciate the great gifts that God has given you.  It's obvious you have a great sense of humor and Love the Lord.  It's also obvious (to me) that your "Introverted personality" offers a great potential for the contemplative prayer life. 

In other words, being introverted perhaps IS your gift...something they don't seem to have recognized...

Many great Saints have spent considerable time alone with God, whether in their private room, before the blessed sacrament or crucifix, or whatever...Such time in prayer and contemplation can reap huge rewards for the church. 

And the other thing is that, often the most quiet are the best witnesses for Christ.  Like I said in my post above, "Preach the Gospel always.  when necessary use words."

Peace

James

[Char]

TURRETIN RING OF POWER ENGAGED

that theology is more practical than speculative is evident from the ultimate end, which is practice. For although the mysteries are not regulative of operation, they are impulsive to operation. For there is none so theoretical and removed from practice that it does not incite to the love and worship of God.

 

Besides Turretin's observation that theology is ultimately both practical and doxological, there are a tonne of problems with this argument. Its not only a false dichotomy (as suggested by Turretin),  but the dude really doesn't show evidence that he even gets what it means to be a Christian. Sure Christianity might make you better. But I fail to see what you tipping (or failing to do so) has to do with the Son of God raising from the dead. And really if it's all about making YOU better...like I've said before it's not called youtianity.

Secondly, the student does have a problem with trying to be closer to God, but the solution is a band aid on a wound as deep as the sea. The answer to that problem isn't Work Harder just at different things, it's Christ and his Gospel. That God is already close in Christ. If the goal is to push her out of her self (which is what is needed), that would be far more effective. The freeing power of the gospel is why the Lutherans can say "God doesn't need your works; your neighbour does." But that is predicated on the already done work of Christ, which should be offered first. Not doing so suggests to me a deficient understanding of the transformative power of the word of Christ.

 

As to the basic argument, I think it's better to remember the analogy of the cross shaped brace-the cross shaped life. The cross extends outward in two plains. They intersect but do not diverge.  You are reoriented toward God, and then to others as his creation. But you do not become vertically oriented by focusing on the horizontal. In fact it is the horizontal that's natural and the vertical that is difficult, because it's primarily the vertical that is broken. The vertical must be corrected first and this will also fix the vertical (or in the analogy, your spine has to be fixed before you can use your arms and legs). But using the false alternative the author presents, focusing solely on the horizontal necessitates neglecting the vertical--neglecting relationship God. And by his alternatives, the author would have to advocate this.

Thing is he would likely argue he isn't teaching that we should neglect God, because of confusion of the horzontal and the vertical planes-we worship God by serving others. But that makes it more difficult for the argument--it's idolatrous to confuse the creation with God in this manner. Doing nice things for people "instead of" spending hours studying and worshipping God doesn't mean you're worshiping him in another way. It means you're doing nice things for people. Service is commanded, and worship is commanded. But you can't just multitask-service is no substitute for worship. And the irony of this confusion goes back to Turretin--it's theology that issues in practice, not the other way around. Knowing and worshiping God will result in love for others, but love for others will not result in knowing God. And besides, trying to use your arms and legs is useless when you have a broken spine. You might have some movement sure, but you have a BROKEN SPINE.

Or as John says, we love because he first loved us.

[Char]

And if my comment is too long for you, peruse Ser's for the more concise version.

[Dave Z]

I find it interesting how different people see different elements in the same article.  I picked up on his accurate identifcation of a problem (at least as I see it).  The concise Ser and the eloquent Char accurately identify a certain ambiguity/deficiency in the guy's solution.  

I do think the author identifies a common problem in evangelicalism - a tendency to treat spiritual growth almost as a self-help project, complete with a list to check off. 

Going to church?  Check! 

Listening to only Christian music?  Check! 

Bible study?  Check!

OK, everything on the list is checked off, I am a Successful Christian. 

The irony is that while I think those things are important, when they are encouraged as the essence of righteousness, or worse, as the essence of faith, they become the legalism that's been discussed in other recent threads.  They open the door to folks thinking that they're righteous because of their consistancy in "being in the word" on a daily basis.  I think that's the one that bugs me the most, mainly because it was not an option for the average Christian for some 75% of the church age.  Yet for many today, it is THE primary duty of a Christian, apparently higher even than prayer, which is what we see modeled in the lives of the apostles and Jesus himself. 

Actually, the article reminded me of a book I read a couple of years ago,  A Contrarian's Guide to Knowing God, by Larry Osborne.  In it Osborne identifies the tendency of the church to try to stuff everyone into a "one size fits all" version of what Christianity is supposed to be (according to them).  I think that's probably seen at its worst in evangelicalism.  IMO, it leads to people trying to cram themselves into a mold of spirituality that just doesn't fit, and they end up suffocating themselves in an attempt to do what they're being told they have to do to be righteous.

Char says "... but the dude really doesn't show evidence that he even gets what it means to be a Christian."  It could be read that way, but I think his intent is to show that the checklist version of Christianity is not the truth either.  At least that's what I'm seeing.

 

[Harry]

That article was all about Works and Law, do this or that, you will be a Christian. If you don' then you are not a Christian. Shades of Rick Warren. Lutherans believe that you are a Christian in your belief in Christ as your Savior and receiving His benefits in the Holy Supper. Good Works will follow in your Christian Life.

[Dave Z]

Harry, I'm pretty well convinced you have no idea what Warren actually teaches.  You might benefit from actually listening to what he says instead of what others say about him.

Char, the more I read your post, the better it gets, especially as it's summed up in your second paragraph.  You're right, he is just presenting another checklist, even as he identifies the deficiency of checklists.   

[Harry]

I have heard some of his sermons, they are always Law, It is always God did His part, now you have to do your part to be blessed. Maybe  you should go somewhere and hear a good Law and Gospel sermon and hear the difference.

Dave Z said:

Harry, I'm pretty well convinced you have no idea what Warren actually teaches.  You might benefit from actually listening to what he says instead of what others say about him.

Char, the more I read your post, the better it gets, especially as it's summed up in your second paragraph.  You're right, he is just presenting another checklist, even as he identifies the deficiency of checklists.   

[Alex Guggenheim]

Dave,

Per the article and question, I concur with the view that another list is not what is needed. What needed to be explored for the student was what they meant by "working on their relationship with God". The counselor did not address the issue, in fact, he just rerouted it.

I have read Warren quite extensively and listened to him quite extensively and I believe Harry is accurate with one caveat. Warren speaks out of both sides of his mouth. That is, he is Law, often and regularly but then turns around and gives Gospel/Grace doctrines from time to time and does so contradictorily. In other words, he does not use a Law/Gospel(Grace)  paradigm in its honest form but one of inconsistency and contradiction. Now we could all just be stupid and have "no idea what Warren actually teaches" but then that would include some rather notable and respected Teachers who share Harry's view. Maybe you ought to consider a little less drastic characterization and test Harry's points to see if they have merit.