General Theological Questions

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Comment by Jack on June 21, 2008 at 12:03am

Steven, Re: Romans 1:18-32.
As I understand verse 20, this does not allow us to apply the passage to Israel, only.
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, Even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,21 because, altho they knew God..."
1. Since the foundation of the world....doesn't mean that about 2000 years after creation, that men began to know about God. Adam and his offspring knew God or knew about Him.
2. His invisible attrubutes were clearly SEEN...with their eyes, they saw the heavens, (which declare the glory of God) and UNDERSTOOD by the things that are made, His eternal power. No reference to scripture or SPECIAL revelation, only to NATURAL revelation.
3. because, altho they KNEW HIM (v21) Before Special Revelation was given. (granted that Adam recieved special revelation)

Therefore I conclude that this passage describes ALL men, beginning with Adam.
4. Therefore they are without excuse.
Grace to you, Jack

Comment by Barrett Young on May 30, 2008 at 5:26am

Steven,
I just bumped your comment into a discussion: "The World's Sin or Israel's Sin". I'll provide some feedback later.

Comment by Steven on May 29, 2008 at 7:51am

I just wanted to send you some additional "food for thought" so to speak regarding Romans 1:18-32, which is generally accepted amongst conservative evangelicals as a general description of mankind's sin, which I agree with whole heartedly.

However, could it be possible that 1:18-32 is a description of Israel's sin in the OT due to the specific wording used as follows:

vs. 18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress (i.e. hold down) the truth in unrighteousness,"
(How can one suppress what he does not have? Only Israel had the real truth of God in scripture.)

vs. 19 "because what may be know of God is manifest (i.e. evident) in them (i.e. among), for God has shown (i.e. revealed) it to them.
(To whom did God clearly reveal himself to in the OT? Judging from scripture (Pentateuch), that answer clearly appears to be Israel.)

vs. 20 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,"
(To whom was the creation clearly revealed? To whom was the Trinity (i.e. Godhead) clearly revealed? Judging from the writings of Moses in the OT, the answer would be Israel (i.e. the Jews). I give you proof text Genesis Chapters 1-3 (Godhead specifically mentioned in Gen. 1::26 and 3:22)

vs. 21-25 "because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds, and four footed animals and creeping things. Therefore, God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen."
(What race of people in the OT really knew God, but ultimately became idolaters in a lot of their ways? Again, scripture would say Israel. I give you proof text Deut. 9.) (Verse 25 speaks of exchanging the truth. Can people who don't have the truth exchange it? Only those who have the truth (Israel), could exchange the truth.)

vs. 26-31 "For this reason, God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men , leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. And even as they did not like to retain(i.e. hold onto) God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil mindedness, they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;"
(In verse 28, the words retain God are used. Can those who do not have God retain God? Only those who had God could retain Him. OT scripture would argue that Israel were the only individuals who had God (i.e. the true God) in their knowledge base (oral and written tradition).

vs. 32 "who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them."
(Who knew the righteous judgment of God? According to the OT, it was Israel (i.e. the Jews). I give you Exodus 21:12,16, and 19. I give you Leviticus 20:10,13 and 21:9.


Again, I'm not saying that Romans 1:18-32 does not describe the general sin of mankind. I'm only making a case that it is also possible, that this is actually a description of Israel's sin only.

Christian Unity Disclaimer
The points I make here are not essential points in reference to our Christian faith such as: Salvation by grace through faith alone, the immaculate conception, inerrancy of scripture, Christian unity and fellowship, and the deity of Christ. These are simply points to promote further discussion as we both seek to, "Grow in Grace and in our knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ". (II Peter 3:18) Because as Paul states in I Corinthians 13:12b, "Now I(we) know in part".

Comment by Leslie Jebaraj on May 27, 2008 at 2:10am

Thanks, Forrest, for creating this Forum. Hope to learn, and share.