Dead to this world

[Apolojedi (Daniel Eaton)]

Someone sent this to me asking for my input on it. It is really longer than I can digest, so I recommended they post it here for comment. I figured you guys would make a great sounding board. Anyway, they asked me to post it and they'd just follow the discussion. There is some stuff proposed here that may disturb or upset your apple-cart. If so, help flesh-out why it is wrong and where.
Daniel

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Dead to the World

In the past I have written several lessons/sermons based on differences between what we are traditionally taught on a particular subject and what the Bible actually says about those issues. Some of those topics include tithing, can divorced men serve as deacons and pastors, and did Jesus die on Good Friday or earlier in the week. Today I want to tackle a totally different topic: what happens after we die?

Before I begin discussing the topic, however, I must give credit where credit is due. I am currently unable to attend church as often as I would like and so I often try to catch sermons on the television. On one such occasion I happened across a program called Amazing Facts in which a pastor by the name of Doug Batchelor was discussing this topic. I was intrigued and so I watched it.

The topic and what he discussed were so foreign to what I had always believed that I actually watched it a fet times and then started digging into the scriptures myself. I took advantage of a downloadable lesson outline from his web site and used it for the basis of this essay.

For years the Christian church has taught that we have an eternal soul (which indwelled us at conception) that will immediately go to Heaven or Hell when we die. For years I believed the exact same thing, and even taught that very same thing over and over again during the 25+ years I have taught Sunday School – but is that really what the Bible says?

I have been very fortunate that I haven’t lost any immediate family members do death thus far in my life – but I have lost other members of my family that I loved dearly. It is very comforting to think of those family members up in Heaven living in their mansions, walking on streets of Gold, and looking down on in anticipation of our joining them – but is that Biblical? It is even more comforting to believe that, as a born again Christian, when I take my last breath and close my eyes in death here on this earth, I will open them in Heaven and in the loving presence of my Savior – but is that really what the Bible says?

Many people around the world have claimed to have “near death” experiences where they died and went to Heaven before returning to their bodies. (On a side note, why is it that none of them ever visited Hell before returning to their bodies? Just a thought..) Hearing these stories gives us as Christians great hope and comfort in believing the way that we do.

A fellow by the name of Don Piper went so far as to publish a book (and makes his living telling his story to churches for a fee…) called “Ninety Minutes in Heaven” in which he claims to have spent an hour and a half in Heaven and in the presence of the Lord and loved ones that had died before him – but, if that experience was so memorable, why is it that he only spends 15 pages out of his entire 205 page book describing what Heaven was like? Those that read his book or hear him speak come away inspired and full of hope – but is his story Biblically accurate? Bible scholars that look at his experience realized very soon that his descriptions of Heaven are actually Biblical descriptions of the New Jerusalem that God will establish after the millennium, not the heaven in which we will reside during the tribulation and the 1000 year millennium. If you were to believe his story, he not only went to heaven and returned, but he travelled at least 1007 years in the future and returned as well!

So… What does the Bible actually say? Do we have “eternal souls” that go immediately to Heaven and wait there to be joined with our bodies after the Rapture?

Before I go further, let’s start by dispelling one of those things that we are told ever and over again by well-meaning pastors as they speak from behind the lectern at funeral chapels or churches. How many of you have heard pastors reassuring family members by telling them that their beloved relative is in Heaven (or “in a better place” where they are not in pain any more or something similar) and justify that statement by stating that the Bible says that, “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”? Does it really?

The verse that they are referring to, and not accurately quoting, is II Corinthians 5:8. We will begin by looking at what the King James Version says:

⁸ We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:8 (NKJV)

As you can see, the verse doesn’t say that to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord. Let’s take a look at it in context, and in a more modern translation, with the verses around it to see what Paul is really saying.

¹ For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands.² We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing.³ For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. ⁴ While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it’s not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life.⁵ God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.⁶ So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord.⁷ For we live by believing and not by seeing.⁸ Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.⁹ So whether we are here in this body or away from this body, our goal is to please him.¹⁰ For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in this earthly body.2 Cor 5:1-10 (NLT)

Is Paul telling us as Christians that our transition from this earthly body to our heavenly body will be instantaneous? No – he is instead stressing that our earthly bodies will pass away and that God has an eternal “heavenly” body for us. Our earthly bodies are not perfect. They grow old and weary and just plain wear out – and we should long for our heavenly bodies – the ones that we will get after we die.

When will we get that body? Paul himself gives us that answer in his first epistle to the church at Thessalonica:

¹³ But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. ¹⁴ For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. ¹⁵ For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. ¹⁶ For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:13-17 (NKJV)

I think that the confusion that most folks (including most pastors) have concerns the true essence of the “spirit” or “soul” (part of the confusion is caused by the fact that those terms are often used interchangeably). What is the “spirit” that God gave us and what does it consist of? Let’s start answering that question way back “in the beginning.” In Genesis 2:7.

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Genesis 2:7.

You notice that the Bible says that “man became a living soul,” not that man came to life and contained a living soul. If we were to stop and think about what we have been taught in church, wouldn’t the latter statement come closer to depicting the idea that we have of an eternal soul living in a flesh and blood non-eternal body?

So, what happens to our soul when we die?

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

According to this verse, our fleshly body was made from dust and will return to dust. Our “spirit” was given to us by God and will return to Him upon our death. What is that “spirit?” Is it our conscious awareness of who we are, what composes our personality, and contains all our memories? Of course not! Science has proven that all those things are located in different areas of our brain – which is part of our fleshly body which, according to the Bible, will return to dust when we die.

What does the Bible say our spirit is?

"The body without the spirit ["breath,"] is dead." James 2:26. "The spirit of God ["the breath which God gave him,"] is in my nostrils." Job 27:3. According to the Bible, our “spirit” is nothing more than the breath of life that God first gave Adam by breathing into his nostrils and gives each of us at our birth. When we stop breathing at our breath, that breath of life (which resides in our nostrils or, more specifically, in our respiratory system) is gone. What is the difference between our “spirit” and our “soul?” That one is easy and has already been covered. "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Genesis 2:7. The equation is a simple one: a human body (made from the dust of the earth) plus the spirit (defined as the breath of life) equals one “soul” – one live human being. The body cannot exist without the spirit I know that this flies in the face of what most of us have been taught our entire Christian lives. It might even take some time for this concept to sink in so, if you want to take some time to think about this for a while and come back for the rest of the essay, be my guest. Just be sure that you do so that you can see where this journey is taking us (remember, I’m new to this realization as well…). I guess the logical question is what happens to the “soul” once we die? Does it contain our wisdom, personality, and memories and go to Heaven immediately to wait on our bodies to join it at the rapture? That is what we have always been taught, isn’t it? Does the Bible back that up? See for yourself: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:20. "Every living soul died in the sea." Revelation 16:3. Wow! Does that really men that our soul will die – or could the writers of these two verses have simply substituted the word “body” for the word “soul?” The answer is Yes – to both questions. You see, the Bible clearly states in both these verses that the soul dies and, if the writers had simply used the word “soul” instead of “body” then it was done deliberately and under the inspiration of God. For us to claim that the writers made a mistake and used the wrong word (simply because it contradicts what we have been taught) means that whomever taught us what we have come to believe must know more on the subject than either Ezekiel or the Apostle John and the Bible must not be infallible after all. The bottom line is that we are souls and souls die. We are mortal (Job 4:17) and only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15, 16) 15 For at just the right time Christ will be revealed from heaven by the blessed and only almighty God, the King of all kings and Lord of all lords.16 He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No human eye has ever seen him, nor ever will. All honor and power to him forever! Amen. 1 Tim 6:15-16 (NLT) Now let’s move on to the important question – what happens to us when we die? If we, the soul, are made up of our human body combined with the breath of life, just what does happen when our bodies die? Are our loved ones in heaven watching over us (possibly even as angels) and awaiting our arrival? Let’s look at each of these in turn: First, What happens to our bodies when we die? The answer: we simply decay back into dust. We neither go to Heaven or Hell. (I’ll get more into that I a moment…) We simply go into the grave until our bodies are resurrected at the rapture. "All that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth." John 5:28, 29. "David ... is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." "For David is not ascended into the heavens." Acts 2:29, 34. "If I wait, the grave is mine house." Job 17:13. Once we die, will we be aware of what is happening around us? Will we be in Heaven either worshiping Christ or watching over our loved ones? The short answer is “No.” "The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10. "The dead praise not the Lord." Psalms 115:17. By now more than a few of you are probably thinking that I have this all wrong. After all, this is completely different from everything that you have been taught growing up. Besides, didn’t Jesus tell the thief on the cross that he would join him in paradise that same day? Let’s see… 39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us." 40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." 42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." 43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23:39-43 I can see some of you now – nodding your heads and saying, “See! Jesus said it and so I believe it!” Just what did He say, though? No, I’m not stupid. I can read His words just as easily as you can – and they’re in red in my Bible too so they must be true – but the key is in the punctuation. You see, punctuation was not commonly used until the 15th century and, while King James and his merry men did their best to put it where they thought it should go, they were also influenced by their preconceptions and what they believed. What Jesus actually said to the thief was, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.” (See, the movement of the comma makes the sentence take on a whole new meaning…) How do I know this? Because Jesus did not go to Paradise the day that he died! Remember what he told Mary after the resurrection: Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.' " John 20:17 (NKJV) Let’s move on with our discussion. Putting aside the theologies put forth by various television shows, what does the Bible say about our ability to communicate with our loved ones once we die – or their ability to communicate with us? While it is comforting to believe that our loved one can hear us when we visit their grave and talk to them, is that really Biblical? "So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." "His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them." Job 14:12, 21. "Neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:6. So the answer is no – we will not be aware of anything after our death. I guess that is a blessing because I would certainly not want to be aware of my surroundings when I am embalmed or cremated!! But that leads us to one final point: what of our “awareness” – the consciousness that contains our personalities and memories and allows us to be aware of our surroundings? With regards to what happens to us when we die, I want to focus on one aspect of that “awareness” and that is the passage of time. How do we, on an individual basis, measure time? On an individual level we all measure the passage of time based on what we observe in the changes to our surroundings. If we were outside we would most likely measure the passage of time by the change in the position of the sun or moon. If we were inside we would more than likely depend on the changed in the digits or positions of the hands on our watch or clock – or by the program schedule of what we were watching on television. But what if we had none of those things to depend on. What then? I could write of some elaborate example involving sensory depravation tanks but instead let’s use something we are all more familiar with: sleep. Let me give you an example. When I was in my late teens I was going to college full time while also working as many as 60 hours a week. Needless to say I had to grab sleep whenever I could and would typically go to sleep immediately and sleep hard until time to wake up. On one such occasion I got home from school and went to bed. My mother called upstairs to wake me up and said, “David, you’d better hurry! The food is on the table and you’re late for school!” I glanced at my clock and saw that, sure enough, it was 6:15 and my first class starts at 6:50 in the morning. I rapidly threw on the first semi-clean clothes I could find and rushed downstairs to find the rest of the family sitting around the dinner table getting ready to eat supper. You see, it was 6:15 PM and, while I had only been asleep for a few hours, I was so unaware of what was happening around me that I believed my mother’s suggestion that I had slept all through the night and that it was 6:15 the following morning. (It actually took me a couple of days for my biological clock to adapt to the 12 hour discrepancy in time after that evening…LOL) One more quick example – it ahs been my misfortune to have had a few occasions in my life where I have needed surgery requiring a general anesthetic. While sometimes the anesthetic can cause short time memory loss, I distinctly remember one such occasion where they put me out for the surgery and, when I awakened in the recovery room afterwards, I asked the nurse when they were going to get started on the surgery. You see, even though enough time had passed for them to successfully complete the surgery, my awareness of the passing of time had been interrupted by my unconscious state and so I was unaware that the time had actually come and gone. And that brings me back to our awareness after death. The preachers are right when they say that we will go to sleep on this earth and wake up in the presence of Jesus (although the setting differs from what we have been led to believe – more on that later…), but they are wrong in their insinuation that the transition is instantaneous – we just won’t be aware of the passage of time between the two! More than once in the Bible (such as in John 11:11-14) Jesus referred to death as “sleep.” When we die, just how long will we sleep? "So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more." Job 14:12. "The day of the Lord will come ... in the which the heavens shall pass away." 2 Peter 3:10. We see here that, when we die, we will simple “sleep” and be completely unaware of the passage of time until the day the Lord returns. What happens then? "Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12. "The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, ... and the dead in Christ shall rise ... and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17. "We shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, ... and the dead shall be raised incorruptible. ... For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Corinthians 15:51-53. So you see – our traditional beliefs regarding what happens to us when we die have only been partially wrong. We do not instantaneous wake up in the arms of God in Heaven but rather are unaware of the passage of whatever time goes by and instead our next conscious realization is when our bodies are raised from the grave during the rapture and we are united with our Savior in the air. While it is not an instantaneous transition from death to eternal life, the lack of a perception in the passage of time will make it seem to be instantaneous between the two. I know that this is a lot to digest. It is unsettling (as it initially was for me as well) to think that the loved ones that have died before us are not in Heaven looking down on us. I myself have lovingly encouraged other family members by joking that Grandmother is in Heaven making fresh sour cream pound cake and banana pudding in preparation for our arrival – but isn’t the most important thing that they will be in Heaven with us? Is it really that important that they arrive ahead of us or, when you think of it, would it be at least as enjoyable if not more so for us to explore Heaven together for the first time rather than a loved one that had been there for years giving us a tour? Just food for thought….

[joanne guarnieri]

Yes, I agree with David, that the author's scheme is based on the dichotomy view of a human being. He (it's a "he," right?) used what I understand are the proof texts (so-called) for this view.

Gen 2:7 God breathed into the human one principle: a living soul. But in the Hebrew text the meaning is plural: breath of life is really "lives" and the human became a "living being." The idea of "soul" being different than "soulish," which the higher form of mammals were.

The dichotomoy view sees the immaterial part of a person, personality, thoughts, feelings, etc. called "the soul," as that person's conscious life inseparable from their body (parts of the brain, as the author says). 1 Thess 5:23 suggests that spirit and soul are housed in the physical body (a more Greekish view, perhaps)

A plethora of scriptures appear to use the terms "soul" and "Spirit" interchangeably (as the author refers to); Gen 41:8 and Ps 42:6; Matt 20:28 and 27:50; Jn 12:27 and 13:21; Heb 12:23 and Rev 6:9 (you recognize that last one). However Heb 4:12 talks about the separation of soul from spirit, something that can be divided, yet is part of one's inward being (in other words, the word of God does not separate the spirit from the body, but from some also intangible thing, ergo the soul)

The "spirit" and the "soul" are referenced in the creation of animals (Eccl 3:21 and Rev 16:3). However both terms, though used for the "animation" of creatures, are never used in the unique way they are used for human beings. Many scriptures show that human "soul" and "spirit" can exist beyond the earthly realm abd experience relationship with God Himself (Matt 17:3; Acts 7:59; Gal 6:8; 1 Thess 5:23; Rev 16:3)

There is less evidence for dichotomy, body and soul spoken of as the whole person (Matt 10:28; 1 Cor 5:3; 3 Jn 2) than there is for trichotomy, body, soul and spirit as the whole person (Mark 12:30; 1 Cor 2:14; 3:4; 1 Thess 5:23)

The dichotomy view says there are only two elements to a person's being. The material, body, and the immaterial, the spirit. You can't distinguish between soul and spirit.

The trichotomy view points out that the person's spirit deals with the spiritual realm, and the soul deals with the mental realm: intellect, emotions, will, personality. The body deals with the physical realm in which we all currently live (Heb 4:12; 1 Thess 5:23; Jn 3:7; Rom 2:28-29; 1 Cor 2:14, 14:14).

[Am thanking H. Wayne House for his help in charting the differences]

The author's treatise on the unknown aspects of time lapse is compelling, and of course, moving the comma does answer a few questions there. Unfortunately, however, if time is a non-issue in the spiritual realm then, yes, Don Piper could have catapulted forward in time for his ninety minutes of our time, then catapulted back in time to tell us all about it. Evidently, the author of the above treatise is not a science fiction fan, or he would know this elemental fact.

An intriguing read but....I'm not buying it.

[Dr Mike]

For a biblical treatment of this subject matter (as opposed to the mistreatment presented here), there are numerous books on the matter. I would suggest either (or both) Robert Morey's Death and the Afterlife and John Cooper's Body, Soul, and Life Everlasting.

There are so many things wrong in the presentation that it would take pages and pages of refutation to cover them all. At the end of the day, as demonstrated by either of the aforementioned books, he's just wrong.

[David Eaton]

I don't think that the writer is referring to soul sleep at all, but rather redefining our concept of what a soul actually is.

[Rey Reynoso]

Yeah, for a while I toyed with the idea of dying, blinking, and seeing the coming of the Lord and then returning in Physical bodies all at the twinkling of an eye but to the rest of us it would be years and years and years and tribulation and then boom.

But there was no way to substantiate that exegetically.

[Apolojedi (Daniel Eaton)]

Another thought struck me as I made my way though this. Has to do with time. I believe we think so 2D and linear. It's all we know. But if God and eternity are outside our time, then all kinds of interesting things could take place. The bodily resurrection could be a simultaneous event for all believers of all time and still appear, from our perspective, to be immediately upon death. No "sleeping". Maybe someone into physics, philosophy, time/space, and all that could make that thought make sense.

[Apolojedi (Daniel Eaton)]

Just to play devil's advocate for a bit, from a dispensational perspective, couldn't the Rich Man and Lazarus have been a story of OT "paradise" and the martyrs of the future be in a different "age" as well? Could things be different for those of us in the "church age"? When Christ said it was going to prepare a place for us, sounded like it wasn't there/ready yet.

[Rey Reynoso]

Actually, tell him to ignore everything I wrote and just skip down to the last five sentences.

[Rey Reynoso]

Fine job interpreting Scripture with Scripture; bad job ignoring Scripture's context to get what Scripture is saying. Passages must be interpreted on their own terms first (I mean, one can go to Phil 1:23 to substantiate instant presence with Christ but this text has to stand on its own). I'll only deal with 2 Corinthians 5.

The first point is that Paul's readers already know about resurrection bodies later on. They had already read Paul's previous letter.

The second point: 2 Cor 5:8 is a continuation from 2 Cor 5:6 which inverts a point. In the body=clothed. But Here with a body=Away from the Lord. What we groan about is being properly clothed (not about getting naked--so don't go there!). But, even so, we still would rather be there (naked) with the Lord than here Away From The Lord until we finally get properly clothed (glorified bodies).

The third point: no apparent contradiction from 2 Cor 5:3 and 5:8 since it can easily be a preemptive warning not to commit the old mistake of 1 Cor 15 (ya' mean we get a permanent Spirit Body?)

The fourth point: the heavenly body is a parousia event...why can't a mediating position of the beginnings of the heavenly tent (the fact that we're there with Him) be what Paul is referring to in v1 that makes plenty of good sense with v. 8.

The fifth point: employing some sitz-en-Lieben in light of 2 Cor 1...Paul's expectation of being changed (1 Cor 15) seems to be shifting in the direction of "Oh, I may not live until the Parousia after all...a quick death may be in store for me." Which would explain why the ruminations.

Now, I doubt your friend will listen to me (who does) but I'd suggest:
Thrall Commentary on 2 Corinthians
Martin's Commentary on 2 Corinthians
Conzelmann Outline of the Theology of the New Testament
This article (and it's footnotes)
This article is a must-read (Some untranslated Greek Warning)

[Chad Gibbons]

First of all, I would say that most of these verses are being stretched to the breaking point in order to incorporate the doctrine of soul sleep. We are told in Revelation that the martyrs (after they have died) are asking God how much longer He will wait to take vengeance upon their enemies. Both the Rich Man and Lazarus also seem quite aware after their deaths. Peter said that after death, Christ preached to the spirits in prison. The gospel writers tell us that Jesus was accompanied by Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration (quite a long time after their own lives on earth). The apostles mistook both Jesus and Peter for a spirit on separate occasions. They apparently thought it was at least possible as well.

It also seems clear that Paul is not talking about soul sleep in 2 Corinthians. After death, we will be absent from our bodies, and present with the Lord (which is far better). At the culmination of all things, we will receive resurrection bodies. Aside from a few proof-texts from Ecclesiastes and Job (the two absolute worst books to wrench proof-texts from), he really has nothing much going for him.

[Piglet]

D,

After my first reading, i rather dispel this, especially when i have to read different version of the Bible for one to make a point (i almost thought i was reading something from one of warrens books). I would be more impressed should one version be used as opposed to many.

Other than that it is worth a deeper study.

p.